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The Epilogue, Part 4: The Attrition Issue

Yes, we did talk about this exact same issue four months ago, back in the wake of the loss to Iowa State (remember when we thought that would be the nadir of the season?). Unfortunately, the problem hasn't gotten any better since then; if anything it's gotten worse. So let's take a look at the recruiting classes year by year.

2007

2007_ia_recruiting_redux_medium

The 2007 class would have been redshirt seniors in the 2011 season, but only nine made it that far. Reisner, Sandeman, and Ballard never used a redshirt year at Iowa, but they also used their entire eligibility. Bulaga and Sash left with eligibility remaining, but they left to play in the NFL, which is the sort of early departure we can certainly live with (though, obviously, from a purely selfish Iowa fan perspective, it would be far better for us if they'd stayed for their senior seasons). That still leaves 7 players (out of a class of 22) that left the Iowa program early. Most of them were gone by the end of their second year on campus. (That's a persistent theme in this analysis, but it also makes sense: if a player leaves within two years, he should still have (at least) two years to play at another school, which is enough time to make a move worthwhile. Of course, this assumes that the move is of the player's volition, which has been the case with most of Iowa's departures. Clearly, cases like Everson and Satterfield are very different beasts.)

RUNNING TALLY: 7/22

Star-divide

2008

2008_ia_recruiting_redux_medium

The 2008 class should have been the one providing seniors and redshirt juniors to the the 2011 team, as well as redshirt seniors to the 2012 team. At this point, only ten of those players figure to be around in 2012 (and that assumes Mossbrucker will come back for a third-straight year as a benchwarmer kicker; I guess there are worse ways to earn a free education). Herman and Prater never redshirted and completed their eligibility in 2011, while Reiff has opted to go pro. Again, those are perfectly acceptable departures. Unfortunately, there have also been 12 other early departures from this class (almost half the class), which is less acceptable. Most of those twelve were gone within two years as well, though Robinson and Hampton departed after their third year (2010) and Lowe left shortly thereafter in the wake of the rhabdo incident.

RUNNING TALLY: 19/47

2009

2009_ia_recruiting_redux_medium

Another hard-hit class. This class should have been redshirt sophomores and juniors in 2011 and redshirt juniors and seniors in 2012. However only 12 (out of 20 signed recruits) will still be around next year. Of the eight departures, most were gone within a year.

RUNNING TALLY: 27/67

2010

2010_ia_recruiting_redux_medium

The 2010 recruiting class is the one that we were counting on to be the backbone of the Iowa program going forward (given the immense attrition in the 08-09 classes, as well as the alarming number of players in those classes who haven't panned out, which is a separate but also important issue in this matter), but it began to show warning signs of the same old attrition problems earlier this fall (already four departures within a little over a year) and those warning signs turned into a blaring klaxon after the recent departures of Coker and Derby, two of the signature recruits from this class. So within two years, 6 of the 22 members of this class are already gone. The good news is that number still represents an improvement from the previous years. The bad news is that it also still seems a bit high.

RUNNING TALLY: 33/89

2011

2011_ia_recruiting_redux_medium

And finally, the most recent recruiting class. This class hasn't even been on campus for a full year yet and already 5 of its 25 members have departed (or, in Coe's case, never made it to campus in the first place). Like the 2010 class, this group was meant to be instrumental in helping Iowa emerge from their current morass of mediocrity. That a fifth of the class is already gone is a little alarming.

RUNNING TALLY: 38/114

38 is a perfect 33% of 114, meaning fully one-third of the players Iowa's signed in the last five years have left the program early. Three of those players (Bulaga, Reiff, and Sash) left for the NFL, while another three were essentially the victims of career-ending injuries (Vier, Heiar, and Hundertmark). That still leaves 32 players who left for non-NFL draft or non-serious injury reasons.

A few additional thoughts:

* A few positions have suffered more than others, obviously. Among those 32 departures, 8 have been running backs and 6 have been defensive linemen (those figures also do not include fullbacks or players listed at another position who might have been transformed into a defensive lineman during their careers, such as Dezman Moses).

* At the moment, I'm not terribly interested in assigning blame for these outflux of talent. In part, that's because these players have left for a multitude of reasons: some were kicked off the team, several left in search of more playing time, some had issues arise close to home, and a few just needed a fresh start. There's no catch-all explanation here: it's not just bad luck, or just Ferentz driving kids away, or just Ferentz recruiting "bad seeds." That said, saying there's no magic bullet to explain Iowa's attrition problems also doesn't absolve anyone of blame, either. 32 departures (an average of just over six a year) seems rather alarming and is the sort of figure which should prompt some soul-searching and analysis of the efficacy of current methods of recruiting and retaining players.

* On the other hand, "seems rather alarming" is not a definitive statement and that's because I don't feel comfortable making a definitive statement until I see some hard data that compares Iowa's level of attrition to attrition at its peer schools. Given the difficulty in finding comparative analysis data like that, it looks like I'll have to sift through the raw data myself (which I intend to do in the next few weeks). Then we'll have a better idea of the true extent of Iowa's attrition problem.

* On the other other hand, we can also certainly say that it is a problem at this moment because a problem like Iowa needs to keep attrition at relatively low levels in order to compete at a high level. It's hard to be a developmental program if you spend so much time having to start from scratch. Several Iowa recruits are guys who won't be able to perform at a high level (or perform much at all) until their third year on campus; when those guys depart within a year or two, all of the time spent recruiting and developing them becomes wasted time, effort, and resources. (In this light, Coker's departure is less painful, since Iowa was able to get 1.5 years worth of good production out of him; this is a very cynical view, admittedly.) Recruiting and retention will never be a perfect system -- some measure of attrition is inevitable -- but losing 1/3 to 1/2 of every recruiting class within a few years does not seem like a successful formula for winning unless you're simply replenshing those departing faces with new high-end recruits.

* Which brings us back to the point I mentioned a few paragaphs ago: these recruiting classes are suffering not just from attrition but from several whiffs on player evaluation. Getting back to the 2010 class, while it's definitely problematic that 6 of its 22 members are already gone, the good news is that still appears to have the potential to be a very productive class: I think at least 12 members of the 16 remaining members will be in the 2012 two-deeps (Donnal, CJF, KMM, Scherff, Shumpert, Davis, Hitchens, Kirksey, Lowery, Miller, Morris, and either LTP or Hardy, possibly both). The 2008 and 2009 recruiting classes might be providing that many players to the 2012 two-deeps combined.

Of course, It's also worth noting that right now we don't yet know if the 2010 players are genuinely much better than the upperclassmen ahead of them (as we saw from several of the 2006 and 2007 players that formed the foundation of Iowa's teams in 2008-2010) or if they're just better than the admittedly low bar set by the 2008-2009 players. After all, someone has to fill the depth chart... We won't really have an answer to this question until the 2012 season gets underway.

Still, the point remains: failure in player evaluation coupled with failure in player retention is an utterly toxic combination for a program like Iowa. The margin for success here is thin already and it's hard enough for Iowa to bring in the blue-chip talents that it does get. It can hardly just slot in a few more when new holes arise. I think the Iowa coaches have done a better job of recruiting in 2010 and 2011 (and so far with the 2012 class, as well). On paper, they appear to be a talented bunch: they have decent (and sometimes quite good) star rankings and solid offer sheets from other BCS programs. Several of them have already flashed talent on the field as well. However, if they continue to struggle to retain that talent, middling results are going to remain the most frequent outcome for Iowa football.

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I did not see this coming

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 9:52 AM CST reply actions  

Not to be picky

but in the 2007 class Bruce Davis left as well.

"40 MINUTES OF MEH!" - djwoody

by The Bacon Explosion on Jan 19, 2012 9:55 AM CST reply actions  

You're right, he did.

He was also the (very rare) player to leave after already being in the program for 4+ years. While it would have been nice to have him this year when Morris and Nielsen were banged up and we were throwing in a true freshman like Alston at MLB, from a program-building standpoint his attrition was much less costly than the guys who leave after just a year or two.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

I would love to see this data compared to that of a school like Texas (who is routinely Top 5 in recruiting rankings, they have 5 star recruits that ride the pine for 4-5 years) and also to a school like Illinois/Colorado/Arizona (Somewhat Similair programs for varying reasons)

If I had to guess, the average would be 20% + or – 3%

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jan 19, 2012 10:04 AM CST reply actions  

We should have a guessing game for the average 5-year attrition

Sort of like guessing the number of jellybeans in that giant jar at the mall. Winner gets a smug sense of self-satisfaction attitude free of reprisal for 24 hours.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Here it is from a post I put on Hawkeyenation

I have two extra players- Bruce Davis and Zach Furlong and still need to compare lists for Purdue and Wisconsin.
Iowa (43 lost- 3 early NFL entrees)/115 offers 35%
Illinois (41 lost- 4 early NFL entrees)/124 offers 30%
Indiana (35 lost- 1 early NFL entry)/108 offers 31.5%
Michigan (40 lost- 0 early NFL entry)/114 offers 35%
Michigan State (28 lost- 2 early NFL entrees)/110 offers 23.5%
Minnesota (45 lost- 0 early NFL entry)/125 36%
Nebraska (28 lost- 0 early NFL entry)/117 24%
Northwestern(9 lost- 0 early NFL entry)/91 10%
Ohio State (23 lost- 1 early NFL entry)/103 22%
Penn State (12 lost- 1 early NFL entry/97 11%

by spudhawk on Jan 19, 2012 10:28 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Woo! We beat Minnesota!

So we compare to four schools who have had coaching changes (well, two contentious, a Zooking, and Indiana ) and have either been “down” in terms of wins or weren’t good to begin with. It doesn’t break down any sort of reasons, but is still pretty damning.

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Interesting.

I wonder what Michigan’s rate was pre-Rich Rod. I’m gonna go ahead and guess “lower.”


"WELCOME TA EARFF!"

by Bucketochicken on Jan 19, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Interesting -- thanks for that.

Where did you get the 43 and 115 numbers, though? Did I leave out a recruit? Even if you include Davis and Furlong that should make 40, unless I’m missing something. (And, like I said earlier, I’m not sure Davis fits the bill entirely — the vast majority of our attrition has been players leaving after 1-2 years; he stayed for 4+. Furlong stayed for 4, IIRC, but never contributed. I think he was more of a whiff in recruiting than an attrition issue. That’s just my take, though.)

I do notice a definite trend there, though. The only programs with attrition rates greater than 30% (except us) are programs that have had a lot of upheaval in their coaching staffs — Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, and Minnesota all made coaching moves in this span. Meanwhile, programs with stability (like us, in theory) have attrition rates between 10-25%.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I also think Iowa's practice of rewarding walk ons with scholarships has

had a direct effect on Iowa’s offer total, which should be higher when you compare it to Illinois and Minnesota. If they recruited an extra 10 kids than likley 3.5 would have left. :)

by spudhawk on Jan 19, 2012 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

But 6.5 would have stayed!

The burning question of course is whether or not that .5 player would have been a better punt returner than Micah Hyde.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

All it would take is one punt return

to answer the question.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I think I know which player you're talking about and I suspect I'll have another Gone Baby Gone to do before long.

I’m still at 40 and you’re at 42, though.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

James Ferentz is heading to Badger land.

Where the beer flows like wine.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions  

If it's James Ferentz

I’m hanging up my fandom cleats

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

JVB is going to Iowa State

At least that’s what I haven’t heard and am completely making up.

by PackerHawk on Jan 19, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

hey!!! Where’ve you been?

by txhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Furlong and Davis take me from 38 to 40.

I’m still blanking on the other two.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

I can't isolate any different names from my list to yours

here is a class breakdown for me
2007 11, 2008 13, 2009 8, 2010 6, 2011 5 which adds up to 43 for me.

But I am really struggling to find different names on our list. I am a bit bunt out though from comparing rosters to rivals commit lists.

by spudhawk on Jan 19, 2012 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

No worries.

Thanks for the effort!

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Great

now I’m going to be re-reading the recruit lists all day to try and figure it out.

Off hand, I have a sneaking suspicion of who it is. And I really, really, really hope I’m wrong.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Do we have to do this?

Just mention a name. And if you are worried about spreading rumors than just say “Hames Borris.”

by TangerinePony on Jan 19, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

If you read down further, I think it is an RB named Johnson.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Iowa losing a RB?

That’s unpossible!

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you saying he's Blackula?

!!!

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

No.

But he might be the Blunchblack of Blotre Blame.


"WELCOME TA EARFF!"

by Bucketochicken on Jan 19, 2012 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Another?

Well, this is intriguing/depressing.

by The Naked Bootleg on Jan 19, 2012 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

And still yet so ho-hum.

All the players leaving (except of course for Coker) are guys that we hear more about when they say they’re leaving than while they’re here.

Now watch it’s someone like Kirksey or KMM.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, that would make sense.

I omitted them because “NFL Draft early entry” is a different kettle of fish than our other attrition problems, but adding them would make sense for the overall numbers.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I will gladly have 4-5 players a year

Leave early for the draft.

"40 MINUTES OF MEH!" - djwoody

by The Bacon Explosion on Jan 19, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Ummm

any hints?

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

by Brock8144 on Jan 20, 2012 7:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Nevermind

should teach me to read all the way through first

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

by Brock8144 on Jan 20, 2012 7:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Or a D-lineman

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

If that's the case

Then a trend (other than the obvious sucky one that we are losing players) is that players are being recruited who the staff want to start/play immediately and are far better. How’s that for optimism?

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

A running back from Florida...

who appears to have been surpassed by the younger RBs and hasn’t really played. And maybe never recovered from a serious knee injury. And who has a last name of Johnson.

by H I McDonnough on Jan 19, 2012 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

I was scouring boards trying to get a clue. People teasing us with such info is cruel. but not unusual around these parts.

"The more I get hit, the more they git hit" - Marcus Coker

by Nature Boy on Jan 19, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

AIRBHG has a second Staff of Power...?

You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jan 19, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe AIRBHG

Went on vacation and his/her/its second-cousin is filling in.
New name: AISSRBHG.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

That one wouldn't be surprising

I was really worried it was a D-lineman from the DC-Maryland area

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm going to miss Chris Johnson.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Canzeri is not from Florida

I know who is leaving, but it’s more fun to see people guess. That trumps the gratification I would get from “outing” the newest Gone Baby Gone.
And this way, if I’m wrong, I’m not one of the those assholes that spreads rumors.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

SHIT! WHO WILL BE OUR FLORIDABACK?!?!?!!!!?

"Gophers are filthy digging rats"
-one of HFMR's many amazing tags

"It's Northwestern," he explained. "A smart school."
-TMart on jNW reading signals

by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 19, 2012 7:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Ross, you will be my hero if you do the work of compiling these stats from other schools

As mentioned by waterboy, I’m very interested in both the big recruiting machines and comparable mid-upper tier programs. I’m also interested in some of the smaller or non-BCS schools, I suspect their turnover is even higher than average but have no basis for that at this point other than a hunch.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 10:12 AM CST reply actions  

Would be possible to reach out to blog brethren to do the same bit of research?

I’d be curious what Lake The Posts (Or Sippin Purple), Hammer and Rails, The Only Colors, and the Wiscy blog would turn up on their own programs. Those are upper-to-mid B1G programs that have had some staff stability in the past half-decade.

You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jan 19, 2012 10:16 AM CST reply actions  

I like the sound of this

sadly, I’m afraid to see the results. I was already in a lousy mood today. This isn’t helping

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

That's not a bad idea.

Although fuck LTP.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Um... not the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.

We might still win the war, but we definitely lost the battle that was the 2011 season. The last updates I saw were here and here.

At that point we had the worst W-L of any of the conferences. I don’t think it got much better after that, either, since our best record at that point (PSU) kind of fell off a cliff in November for some reason. Our best teams wound up being Va Tech and TCU. We also had the worst offense (never should have let KOK be the OC) AND the worst defense of any of the conferences. We did have the 2nd best attendance figures of any conference, though. Go us!

The problem was that we picked a lot of teams that were either historically great or recently great… and they almost all conspired to have pretty mediocre seasons this year. And also Kansas, Colorado, and Indiana are fucking terrible at football. On the bright side, we’d be pretty damn good at basketball this year…

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:54 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

What did LTP do to you?

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

More work for Ross!

Additionally, it would be interesting to see a breakdown of who the primary recruiter for each player that left was. Ultimately, the responsibility of player evaluation falls on the entire staff, but the initial evaluations and “sale,” if you will, of a given recruit’s talents and potential to the rest of the staff falls on that player’s primary recruiter.


"WELCOME TA EARFF!"

by Bucketochicken on Jan 19, 2012 10:16 AM CST reply actions  

I guess it's good

that because of the low coaching turnover, we don’t have issues where a coaches departure leads to guys (and recruits) leaving. Good in the sense that it’s one less cause. We have enough as it is. If there is a spike pointing towards one recruiter then you’d have to wonder what he’s telling recruits.

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Great point.

Which kind of makes this more befuddling. If Iowa is the only B10 football program that hasn’t had a new head coach (or even a new coordinator until Norm’s retirement) within the last 5 or 8 years, then I would think that SHOULD help us keep players longer.

Another item to consider is the environment. I realize Iowa City goes through growth and change like most cities. But, in my mind, it doesn’t seem a ton different than 5 or 10 years ago (maybe even 15 or 20 years ago?) If anyone can think of changes that would probably affect football players, feel free to throw them out there, but I’m struggling to think of many (maybe social media and the immediate media cycle are exposing or drumming up “more drama”, but I’m not sure.)

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

As a person that lived there 18 years ago

it doesn’t look even remotely the same as it did back then. Huge amounts of development and building projects that I had difficulty figuring out how to get places. And then when I got there the place I wanted to go wasn’t there anyway.

I will say that when you compare IC to several of the other B1G campus towns it comes out favorably more times than not.

"40 MINUTES OF MEH!" - djwoody

by The Bacon Explosion on Jan 19, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

What are you talking about?

Champaign-Urbana is the Paris of the Midwest! And I’ve often heard people say West Lafayette is the Champaign-Urbana of Indiana!

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

That's East Lafayette.

West Lafayette is the Waterloo of Indiana.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Lycurgus is going to kick himself

for not being around to make that joke

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Or perhaps their Elba

A prison from whence they shall one day return.

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

probably more likely

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 20, 2012 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

You would get triple-banned at ATO for that comment.

One, because it’s denigrating OSU.

Two, because it’s a joke.

Three, beause you used a subject line, you horrible person, you.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Would they even get to points 1 and 2?

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I can't believe

you would défilé the Buckeyes with such a joke

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

you got some funny-looking business above your e's there

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 20, 2012 8:41 AM CST up reply actions  

It is French

a language that died out along with the military strategy of building fixed emplacements, facing away from enemy movement

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 9:14 AM CST up reply actions  

I would prefer that German die as a language

Such an ugly, brutal sound.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 20, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Das ist verboten

Deutsch sprache ueber alles

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Must be beautiful.

And full of bullet-holes.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I was there in November.

It was not beautiful.

I didn’t notice any bullet holes, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t there…

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Parts are not nice.

Parts are nice.

Downtown Waterloo is certainly not Vegas.

Did you see the new Casino or the new-ish Veteran’s Museum? Both are reasonably nice.

The shopping malls in Waterloo (and very much Cedar Falls) are in decline.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

No, I was in WL in November.

I haven’t been in Waterloo for a very long time.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Ah yes.

BHGP-travel-tours.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Has a culture developed?

I write this with little idea of what happens at other programs. Take it with a grain of salt if you want to.
Each successive recruiting class has seen teammates become unhappy with the program, bounce out, transfer elsewhere, and in some cases to reasonably well. I remember when J. Hampton’s Facebook post made clear he was out of the program, Adam Robinson’s comment on it was to “ENJOY IT!!” or something to that effect. I mean, I know they’re friends and all, but I was a little stunned by Robinson’s attitude of “You finally made it out! Run away!”

Year after year after year of people leaving could make it normal, or even anticipated by the players. There’s no judgment, no accountability for people who would rather leave than stay. It’s certainly the expectation from our side that an unusually high number of kids are going to leave. The question is, If I’m anywhere near right, is how that culture is changed.

We need Pat Angerer to come back and play punch-out on quitter’s faces during team meetings.

"Woody Orne with the one-handed grab!"

by One_ill_KevinJ on Jan 19, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

So, Pat Angerer for DC.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

If a guy wants to quit the team

than he should be able to quit the team without being judged by a bunch of people who don’t know him and have no idea what he’s been through that led him to reach that decision. Especially when most of them have never played D1 football.

We can be unhappy that they left, but to call them quitters and hope somebody punches them in the face? Maybe you need to step away for awhile and think about how this is just a game.

"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer

by Flakbait on Jan 19, 2012 3:12 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Mos def

Some people should have their internets taken away. The Marcus Grant thing still pisses me off.

by mikjones24 on Jan 19, 2012 3:19 PM CST up reply actions  

What was that?

"Gophers are filthy digging rats"
-one of HFMR's many amazing tags

"It's Northwestern," he explained. "A smart school."
-TMart on jNW reading signals

by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 19, 2012 8:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Asshat immature so-called Hawkeye fans

attacked him on Twitter. It was an embarrassment.

The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.

by HawkeyeGirleye on Jan 19, 2012 9:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Just after he de-committed, right?

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup

Immediately following that announcent.

The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.

by HawkeyeGirleye on Jan 19, 2012 10:31 PM CST up reply actions  

& auto correct thinks 'announcent'

is a real word? I give up.

The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.

by HawkeyeGirleye on Jan 19, 2012 10:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Now I remember.

I confused him with the Wisky high school running back that was considering Iowa (and maybe verbaled?) and ended up going to Wisky I think.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

So the initials were the same. Now I don’t feel quite as dumb.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 20, 2012 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

So what your really trying to say is ...

No way things get worse and its all behind us. Right ! ? Thanks Ross.

by Herky on Jan 19, 2012 10:28 AM CST reply actions  

By my count

-5 left for injury related issues (Hampton-kind of, Lowe-kind of, Vier, Heiar, Hundertmark)
-5 for academics (Blackwell, Paine, Prater, Ngoumou, Coe)
-8 for some sort of trouble (Pugh-not directly, Everson, Moses-not directly, Satterfield, Robinson, Coker, McCall, Derby-debatable)
-22 for things like I’m moving closer to home/I got a girl pregnant/I got passed on the depth chart/I don’t like my position coach type of deals

The word is Fight, Fight, Fight for Iowa

by fightforiowa on Jan 19, 2012 10:34 AM CST reply actions  

Wait are there really two Praters from 2008?

Per Rivals

Shane Prater
WR
Omaha, NECentral High School
6’0"

Shaun Prater
DB
Omaha, NECentral High School
5’10"

I thought Rivals just fucked up. Or that this was just an amazing ploy by Prater. Have we ever seen both of them in the same room at the same time…without helmets on?

by TangerinePony on Jan 19, 2012 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

they're twin brothers. Shane left the team very early

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

not..sure..if..serious????

His twin left for one of the Iowa Community Colleges very early, but was heard of as recently as Twitter’s Deep Throat during the rhabdo incident.

You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jan 19, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I think that was another older Prater brother who tweeted about rhabdo.

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

There's a third Prater boy? And he didn't go to Iowa, either?

Why is Ferentz so dumb?

You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jan 19, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I had no knowledge of one of Shaun's brothers tweeting about that.

And I consider myself a pretty decent follower.

I must have had a busy week just after rhabdo or something.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I could be totally wrong.

It happened once.

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Any chance of JC players returning to the fold.

"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants

by Kluginator on Jan 19, 2012 10:46 AM CST reply actions  

Maybe Coe.

Beyond that, I doubt it.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I appreciate the work that went into this . . .

But UNTIL this is answered:

“On the other hand, “seems rather alarming” is not a definitive statement and that’s because I don’t feel comfortable making a definitive statement until I see some hard data that compares Iowa’s level of attrition to attrition at its peer schools."

It seems to me to be a somewhat futile exercise to wail and gnash our teeth. Only IF Iowa is experience higher-than-average attrition rates is this something worth being upset about. If, as I anecdotally expect based on some other things I’ve read and heard on sports radio, Iowa is middle-of-the-road on this issue, one has to chalk it up to as just being part of today’s college football landscape.

by Torbee on Jan 19, 2012 11:00 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

This is where I've been on this issue for the last month

It sucks, but it’s part of the landscape. We just don’t take as much note when a player at another school leaves. Even if the percentages are comparable, we’d have to get into the assessment of trying to measure contributions, etc to see if we’re losing production and not just bodies. Then you just have to sort through the measuring production by position and trying to build that database etc. So looking at the numbers put forth by spudhawk, I’m fine thinking that this isn’t necessarily as much of an issue as some make it out to be.

by PackerHawk on Jan 19, 2012 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

I disagree, respectfully.

the schools with a comparable percentage have all undergone significant changes in coaches- even Illinois revamped their coordinators. Iowa has not had significant staff upheaval for basically this time period. Norm leaving, along with Kaz is the first major staff shakeup during this time period. I think a staff that for all intents and purposes has been incredibly stable having this type of recurring player loss is troubling, but I can’t put my finger on the cause.

by spudhawk on Jan 19, 2012 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

If your numbers are right

I think I’m in your camp on the relative “scare level” of this.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Meh

the numbers weren’t that bad. Take out the two outliers (2008, 2009), average over 13 years, and Ferentzii attrition level probably isn’t that bad.

Remember, potential always outweighs achievement. Jewel Hampton leaves and we think we just lost a quality back (I was the leader of those chants). Shonn Greene wins the Doak, and we think “of course, that’s what would happen to all backs who remain at Iowa” (another chant I frequently lead).

by TangerinePony on Jan 19, 2012 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Not really

you can’t just toss out the data you don’t like, especially in a sample size this small. There is a reason only five-seven years worth of data is included: (1) records from pre-2005 recruiting are a lot spottier; (2) we’re examining recent trends with the team.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm copying this post

for the next time you tell me we can’t use the 2009 season as an indicator of Ferentz’s abilities.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:18 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

No you can use it

you just use it as the SOLE example as you are want to do

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 20, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

*wont

Sorry, I had to do it. You’re usually so good that I found it funny when you messed up.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 20, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Live and learn

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 20, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

That isn't the reason you can't use it

The reason that season is a dubious:

The Indiana Game
The UNI Game
The Northwestern Game
The Ohio State Game

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Go read something.

Or write something funny.

Or plant and study something.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 20, 2012 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Take a long walk off of a short pier

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

You know I was trying to be funny and slightly complimentary, right?

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 20, 2012 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought "write something funny"

was a similar sentiment as “pound sand”.

My bad.

Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein

by Lycurgus on Jan 20, 2012 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

a somewhat futile exercise to wail and gnash our teeth

Between football seasons, what else is a Hawkeye fan to do?

"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants

by Kluginator on Jan 19, 2012 5:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Wrestling dude!

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

by Brock8144 on Jan 20, 2012 7:12 AM CST up reply actions  

I've been thinking about this and have a minor theory that is likely worthless

Because Iowa has to recruit so many players from out of state, is coming to Iowa City THAT much of a cultural issue for dudes from the east coast? I imagine it’s true for Florida kids, lord knows. And, look, I really like Iowa City but knew perfectly well what I was getting into when I walked on campus. I wonder if these things matter more than we like.

by txhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 11:14 AM CST reply actions  

How is Iowa City any different from any other midwestern town?

Hell, it’s more interesting than 90% of other midwest college towns due to its history/culture/position. Then again, I’m biased.

by mikjones24 on Jan 19, 2012 11:18 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I think it's particularly relevant for the specific reason of out-of-state skill players

This is a gross generalization, but most of our skill players are not from Iowa and also from a more urban area. The fish bowl and “oasis in a cornfield” atmosphere of Iowa City might be more daunting than you’d think for a young man.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Guess I just don't understand

Why recruits can’t see that when they take visits. Is it really that hard to get a general sense of a place when you actually go there?

by mikjones24 on Jan 19, 2012 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

the world is littered with regretted major decisions

Personally, I went through 4 different majors, and of my closest friends at UI, far more than half started at a different school and transferred to Iowa for a cornucopia of reasons. They thought through their school decisions pretty heavily with on-site visits as well.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd guess that it is

when a guy is being recruited, the visit is basically all about him, and it’s short term. Once he’s here and on his own, then he has time to notice the differences, the things he’s taken for granted as always being there. I can really see that adding up. Some guys will love the new place, explore it and grow, but I imagine that some guys have a hard time with that.

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

One of the things I wonder is how different (if at all) guys are treated as recruits and players.

To a man, recruits talk about how much they love KF and how close they are to [insert recruiter’s name], yet those bonds seem to fray for several of them once they get to campus full-time. Are they being treated differently as recruits and as players? Do KF and the coaches suddenly become hardasses? I don’t know.

The flip side, of course, is that several other players love KF and the coaches and are effusive in their praise of them, even after leaving Iowa.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

I think "The Program" may be informative here

When Omar Epps’ character was a recruit everyone, coaches included, were falling all over themselves in praising and buddy-ing up to him; but when he arrived on campus, he discovered he was now the least important cog in the machine. I think that may be true for a lot of players, they really enjoy the interaction and attention they get from coaches as recruits, then are shocked when the coach(es) doesn’t spend as much time with their concerns once they get to school, that they are just one more face in a sea of 100+ players.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

But at the same time, that seems like something that should be (largely) true across all schools. It’s not like OSU or PSU have more coaches to spend time with players once they get on campus and they have the same obligations (interviews, gameplanning, gladhanding, etc.) that coaches do here.

But 35% of the recruits-turned-players at Ohio State and Penn State aren’t bailing out.

On the other hand, this gets me back to the proximity point. I wonder how many of their recruits are from OH/PA/MI, etc. It’s a lot easier to keep kids that are close to home. 24 of the 38 early departures up above were out-of-state kids from states that didn’t border Iowa.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

OSU and Penn State

Are usually in the conversation for Rose Bowl or National Championship. A redshirt bench warming 4 star will stick around if they have a chance to play in one of those games. The draw to the school will keep the players after their hops of being a starter have faded.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

after their hops of being a starter have faded.

Made me think of Eric May.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

True.

Michigan State has an attrition rate in the 20% range, per spudhawk’s figures, and they’ve only been markedly better than Iowa in the W-L record over the last few years.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

You'd stay at a place, too,

if the Coach can get you out of the slam.

/Prison-Mike’d

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Your last figures was what I was wondering. tOSU and PSU, I’m guessing, are recruitnig more in-state or closely bordering. Kids can get home and see their Moms, their Moms have an easier-ish time getting to their home games, stuff like that. Distance? Winter? A combination of a lot of stuff? I think I saw a figure that UT lands only a couple of out-of-state kids every year. The pool of applicants is just so much different in Iowa.

by txhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Additionally

from what I’ve read, Mack Brown’s recruiting strategy is more along the lines of Duke – they don’t recruit kids, they select them. Basically, if a kid doesn’t want to go to Texas, they don’t go after them.

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

by Brock8144 on Jan 20, 2012 7:21 AM CST up reply actions  

There are more stresses on "players" than "recruits", as well.

As a recruit, maybe you’ve taken a couple of trips to IC and seen the fun side.

As a player, you meet Chris Doyle, you have to do enough studying/work to pass college classes, you have the financial stress of anything that isn’t covered by your scholly/room/board/stipend. You may even have the possible time requirements and sometimes “drama” of family, friends, and a lady-friend or 5.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

True.....

But the players have resources to help them. I think it’s safe to assume that unless they get arrested, accused, injured, drafted, etc the players leave because they can read the writing on the wall. Players want to play, and when you get into camp, start fall camp, and get to the first few games and you’re still not listed on the 2-deeps….can’t blame any of the stresses of being a student athlete.

Iowa focuses so much on developing players that when they get a feel for who’s going to be good (they have a good record and history of that) they play them. Better or worse, this is the way it is. If you aren’t guy 1 or guy 2, it’s going to take some turnover (see Nardo, Daniel) before your seeing quality time.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Also just adjusting to being in college and being (for the most part) on your own

I never got it as I was dying to get out of the house and was already pretty independent (got a job at 16, paid for all my clothes and entertainment from then on, paid for college, etc), but lots of kids don’t adjust very well. My suitemates my freshman year both had home sickness and didn’t adjust very well. And one was from freaking Cedar Rapids and would go home every weekend and talk to her parents mulitple times every day. The other was a little more understandable—she was from the Twin Cities and her dad had died like the year before. So she not only had the whole college adjustment thing but also adjusting from a major loss as well.

by Captain n Diet Coker on Jan 19, 2012 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

People from Cedar Rapids suck!

/looks in mirror

Oh wait…

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

hmm

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

Parents of players have even said they are sending their kid to the nice quiet small town of Iowa City. But that’s the problem. Iowa City is all of those things but not for football players. Football players are major celebrities here with many opportunities to party, drink, cuddle with ladies, get ripped by the media, etc. I think the perception v. the reality of Iowa City is a big factor in attrition.

by TangerinePony on Jan 19, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

That also happens in

Baton Rouge, Gainesville, Austin, Columbus, Ann Arbor, whereever Oregon is, etc. They only way to get some immunity from this is to go to a team like jNW or MN where it’s a big metro area with a second rate team.

"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer

by Flakbait on Jan 19, 2012 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Eugene is quite like Iowa City, actually

Nice place to visit/party if you’re a young travelin’ man

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

with the sweet tenderness that is Phil Knight money

by txhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

FWIW

Eugene
Photobucket

"Gophers are filthy digging rats"
-one of HFMR's many amazing tags

"It's Northwestern," he explained. "A smart school."
-TMart on jNW reading signals

by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 19, 2012 9:43 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It saddens me that

WWE is so quickly parting ways with guys like him, Carlito, and ten other guys who became famous after I quit regularly following pro wrestling.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

It's possible.

Our retention rate is much better with in-state kids than out-of-state kids.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

One thing that might help lower attrition:

getting more players who are already friends and may have been team-mates.

I realize that Jake Christensen helping to talk guys into coming to Iowa didn’t completely help us in 2005 and thereafter. But, might it help if we had more instances of 2 or 3 or 4 guys from the same high school? Or 2 or 3 or 4 guys who played on teams at 7-on-7 camps?

I know that, particularly in Iowa, it is difficult to find teams that have that type of talent, but some of those guys might be career backups anyway.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 11:16 AM CST reply actions  

I think that's overblown.

The class of 2005 had several Illinois kids that were apparently fairly tight, but that didn’t keep Bain around (or Jake, after he lost the starting job). In recent years, we had Poggi and Ferguson from the same HS, but Ferguson still left after a year.

I don’t think it HURTS to have guys who are friends, but I also don’t think it’s a big deal. Guys get to college and make new friends — just like every other college student. I know when I went to Iowa I initially hung out a lot with people I knew from HS but over time that changed and after a few years I was spending barely any time with them.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Not to mention we've had two brother tandems that saw one leave

Derby and Prater.

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Clearly Shaun was their favorite

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

by Brock8144 on Jan 20, 2012 7:24 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

These guys spend a ton of time together.

Some are room-mates, some may have similar/same majors.

But imagine how much time they hang out between practice, gameday, and possible travel. I’d guess it is somewhere between 15 hours on a light week, to 30+ on the week of a road game?

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Very true.

But, again, they’re also spending all that time with several other players, so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they just developed new friendships that grew more important to them.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I do hope that is the case.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Black v. White

Almost every year there are whispers of black, white locker splits. Which I believe, not necessarily because of one player being a racist, just that White Hick Farm Boy can clash with Inner City Black.

Just saying, maybe constantly talking about how great America is and how you should get out if you want to change it doesn’t fly with black or latino teammates who still experience racism.

If only everybody could fall in love like Greenway and Hodge…

by TangerinePony on Jan 19, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Can I block certain commenters like on Facebook?

Damn SB Nation’s antiquated features.

You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jan 19, 2012 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Sigh. Another commenter I have to ignore

There’s been some chatty ones lately.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Somewhat of a stretch to say that all white football players at Iowa

Are farm kids.
Why did I respond? Should have followed other’s advice.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

This.

This was actually one of the biggest reasons why I didn’t want to go to Iowa at the time, and instead went someplace where no one from my hometown was a student. From what I could tell at the time, it seemed like most of the kids I knew at Iowa from my town hung out with… other people I knew at Iowa from my town. That was exactly what I was trying to not do with my college experience. So, I went elsewhere. Of course, all of that doesn’t mean I couldn’t have still gone to UI and just made new friends/not hung out with people I already knew, but still.
So anyway, I don’t think the “4 or 5 guys from the same H.S.” thing is necessarily a big selling point.


"WELCOME TA EARFF!"

by Bucketochicken on Jan 19, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

You make new friends at college

I really didn’t hang out that much with anyone I went to high school with. My best friend dropped out after his soph year – drank/partied himself out of Iowa (although he finished his degree, 20+ years later, at night school and is now an Iowa grad). I made new friends, but oddly, the only ones I still talk to are a couple of guys from my graduate school program. Iowa’s a big campus, and like anyplace else, if you don’t have a small group you hang out with, or go Greek or something like that, I think you find yourself wondering where everyone went 20 years later.

I think “the sea of 100 faces” comment is very telling. You come from your high school, where you were the Big Shit, and now you’re barely a tiny turd in a bigger pool. Some people just don’t handle that very well.

As to college towns, I’d compare Iowa City very favorably with ANY college town in America – and lets take out weather in the equation, because it can be sucky hot at Western/Southern schools for a good portion of the school year – that’s located in a city of 50-100,000 in population – very favorably.

Never *question* Bruce Dickinson!

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by The Bird Cult on Jan 19, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

The only person from my high school class who came to the UI?

A girl who hated me all thru high school (& honest-to-god I never knew why). Of course, we had the same small major & had a lot of small classes together. We did a splendid job of just ignoring each other, thankfully.

I hadn’t been as independent as C&DC pre-UI but was absolutely thrilled to be free of overprotective parents & had a blast from day one. (Read my sig as proof.). Of course, I wasn’t trying to go to class, find my way socially AND work a 40 hour ‘job’. Seeing those who could barely make it thru the week before heading home every weekend completely baffled me but I’m sure we all knew at least a few. Have to guess that it’s a potentially more common issue for a stud football player who’s suddenly just another number on a team.

The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.

by HawkeyeGirleye on Jan 19, 2012 9:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Can't let AIRBHG off the hook quite yet

First off, great work Ross. It’s cool to see it all laid out like this.

Just doing some quick calculations (please correct me if I got the totals wrong), it looks like 8/13 running backs have left (62%), while 6/19 defensive linemen have left (30%). So while the raw numbers of attritted (if that’s a word) players is similar by position, the percentages are very different. It would be interesting to see a breakdown by all the positions.

The numbers of players are so small, though, that it’s really hard to ignore the possibility of bad luck. If two more linemen had left and two more running backs had stayed, the percentages would be almost identical.

by Horace E. Cow on Jan 19, 2012 11:46 AM CST reply actions  

And just as a complete aside

Does anyone else think it’s fascinating how the coaches split up scholarships by position? It’s really like a strategic game: you have to figure out how many of a particular “resource” you need, what are the chances of attrition (whether due to injury/academics/whatever) at that position, and what the payoff is of investing more resources (scholarships) in a particular position. The coaches seem to favor D-linemen, secondary players, and O-linemen, in that order, which makes sense in terms of the numbers needed to fill those positions. But considering there are five OL positions, it’s kind of surprising that there are fewer recruits there than at DB. Maybe OL is more like QB: they try to get the best there and hope they hold down the position for 3-4 years.

In that light, Iowa’s coaches really have devoted a lot of scholarship resources to a position (RB) that is usually only played by one person — more than WR, for example. I think they have factored in the attrition already with the position, it’s just exceeded their worst fears.

by Horace E. Cow on Jan 19, 2012 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

For whatever reason (maybe the players really like Reese Morgan?), the retention rate for OL is very high.

Looking at those charts, the only ones who’ve left early have either gone to the NFL (Reiff, Bulaga) or had serious injury problems (Hundertmark, Heiar). Conversely, we’ve had a fair amount of turnover at DL and DB, which has probably necessitated bringing in more players of that type.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

it probably doesn't hurt that one good season at Iowa can land you in the NFL

See Yanda, Marshall

"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney

by ClaybornSmash on Jan 19, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the RB recruiting rate

has been persistently high as a reactive rather than proactive process.

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point Horace

Iowa recruiting is also famous for taking skill position players and changing them. Which makes sense because High School Football is a strange beast, and most schools don’t have their strongest athletes on the O line or are WR when they only throw 10 times per game.

See Hollywood Solomon to WR from QB and
Gallery from TE to LT

by TangerinePony on Jan 19, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Re: running backs and defensive linemen...

You’re right, but we also can’t overlook the fact that you need to start (and play) four defensive lineman at the same time, while you can really only start (and play) one running back at the same time (okay, you COULD use a two-back set, but we don’t do that). So a) we need more defensive linemen than we do running backs and b) losing 30% of them impacts the potential starting lineup/playing rotation a fair amount.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a good point

Losing one DL is probably like losing two RBs in terms of impact. The RB position has had a higher propensity for attrition, but it’s been less devastating than it would be on the line or the defensive backfield.

Just looking at NFL rosters, it looks like they usually have 5 RBs on the roster, 10 OLs, ad 8-10 DL, so it could just be that coaches have to plan for major attrition at RB simply because the chance of injury is so high. That could be the story with Iowa, too.

Or it could be that running backs are a dime a dozen, but huge athletic guys are much rarer, so it’s just not possible to recruit 3 deep on the offensive/defensive line.

by Horace E. Cow on Jan 19, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

It's probably a little from column A, a little from column B

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

2010's retention looked great until this month

losing those top two now makes it look much worse

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 12:10 PM CST reply actions  

I'm wondering what if the players aren't experiencing personality conflicts w/coaches.

The two hardest hit areas of attrition(DL and RB) had a DL coach(in Coach K) and a RB coach that reportedly have difficult personalitys. This is far from an uncommon characteristic in football coaches but given that their personalitys may be starkly different from a number of other coaches on the team and the fact that Iowa may not have some of the attractive attributes to some kids that some other schools have you wonder in a push-pull calculation if some of these kids aren’t pushed away. Particularly, I’m wondering if some of the kids from urban areas who may have overwhelmingly come to Iowa because of the coaching/football are more apt to leave when faced with coaches that they find difficult to get along with. These kids may not be good “fits” for Iowa other than as football players. Which is not their fault nor Iowas. I’m hoping that with Coach K.(apparently he was a very good “teaching” coach even if he was difficult) gone that we’ll have better luck with attrition at the DL position. Coach Erb seems to be a very good recruiter so not suggesting he be cut loose but, he may need to curb some the more caustic nature of his personality(it’d probably help him move up in the profession too).

by Steven Dailey on Jan 19, 2012 12:52 PM CST reply actions  

The title was very poorly worded.

I meant to say “What if the players are experiencing personality conflicts with coaches”.

I don’t think it’s an aversion to “hard work”. Players work hard at schools around the country and the coaches don’t sugar-coat the fact that you’ll have to work very hard at Iowa.

by Steven Dailey on Jan 19, 2012 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Hard Work !

Thats what a lot of these kids are scared of. It takes work at the next level and most of these kids have been the most talented person on whatever team since day one. They get to Iowa and have to do what ? Learn how to block ! Screw you … Im out ! Head to S. Illinois where I can be a star. OR worse yet change position. Even though Iowa has a track record of creating stars these kids don’t want to its to hard. Getting stuck behind a better athlete is tough too. Then these city kids have to want turn at one of the top ten party schools in the country. * What shall I do ? * Oh I know get drunk and punch a bus.

by Herky on Jan 19, 2012 1:12 PM CST reply actions  

Yep

all these kids who take a full course-load plus 20 hours a week of practice plus countless hours of “voluntary” time spent reviewing film/training are just lazy. You’ve hit the nail on the head.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 1:19 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

I think Herky was referring to practice/camp hard work.

And 12 hours of undergrad College of Liberal Arts course requirements are not that tough. C’s get degrees.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Kinda dicky the way you said it, but you're 100% correct

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it is necessarilly them being lazy,

but maybe more of they can’t handle it while not being “THE MAN”. Most of these guys were stars on their respective high school teams and probably were used to having everything handed to them and could do whatever they wanted off the field and didn’t get into trouble. When they get to Iowa they are no longer “THE MAN” and will get suspended for every little thing. It’s a lot of responsibility to play football in college and go to class in addition to other required expectations. Nobody is there to tell them off the field to get to class, it’s easy to start skipping and doing other things. I guess maybe Chigosie Ejiasi isn’t doing his job or it’s too much for him to handle with all of the players combined. To sum it up, it may be too much responsibility and to out of the norm for some players to handle. We are talking about 18-22 year olds, and I’m sure most of us remember the stupid things we did when we were 18-22, not even a football scholarship will keep some from falling to the prey.

by IowaFan81 on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

To prove how stupid I was when I was 21-23

I don’t remember beng 21-23, but I remember I knew I was intentionally being stupid. And I remember not enrolling in school, at least not until had gotten being stupid out of my system.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I played NAIA football,

didn’t miss a class or any expectations during the season, but once the season was over I partied way too much and missed everything and eventually flunked out after one semester. Went back in 3 years later to a different school, started all over and graduated in 3 years. What a difference a couple years and having priorities straight helped. Some kids can’t handle it being without mommy and/or daddy and everyone else handing everything to them and fall through the cracks. 100+ kids is a lot of people for the coaching staff to keep track of and fulfill their other duties, the kids have to step up for themselves and save the coaches that time.

by IowaFan81 on Jan 19, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

This is true

but doesn’t explain the differences school to school. You have a greater chance at being the man at Iowa vs tOSU, Alabama, etc… So it would seem if there isn’t any other cause this would be a greater concern at a place chocked full of 4-5 star guys.

"40 MINUTES OF MEH!" - djwoody

by The Bacon Explosion on Jan 19, 2012 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

More severe consequences or being held to a higher standard

at Iowa vs the big name schools?? Seems to me that Iowa’s punishments are harsher than most schools even if not made public (i.e. Ferentz’s doghouse).

by IowaFan81 on Jan 19, 2012 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure we know that

Unspecified violation of team rules really helps with the oversigning thing when you’re trying to free up scholarships

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd love to see a deeper study nationally

I’m not convinced Nebraska has been all that much better over the same time period. Whereas Iowa seems to lose RB’s, Nebraska seems to lose QB’s. I started trying to break everything down like Ross, but that’s quite the undertaking, and I’m at work and… well yeah. The question I have is less so just the normal, “Is this systemic of Iowa, Nebraska, Midwest schools, etc.?” and moreso, "Are we looking at a generation of players who are extremely individualistic (see, self-serving/shortsighted… these are 18-23 year old afterall) or what?

Cody Green (Tulsa), Joe Dailey (NC), Harrison Beck (NC State), Patrick Whit (Yale), Bubba Starling (he was never coming here) are all QBs who started here and bailed. Throw in the Gabberts both giving verbals to Nebraska and you have a trend. Why? Good question, and not one I know an answer to (obvious jokes about arm punting/crazy coach… blah blah blah… I’ve heard them, let’s move on). I think the problem isn’t just that attrition is high, but it seems to be increasing. It’s like kids see themselves as free agents if they don’t get their way sometimes. Injuries and homesickness play into that a bit, but college is supposed to be a growth period . Still, with kids coming to the Midwest from Texas, Florida, California, and even NJ/PA/VA, it’s quite the culture shock. Then there’s the whole race thing for some players which might not be an ‘issue’ but I’ve lived in Iowa and Nebraska and let’s just admit that for the most part, it’s white. It may be all about acceptance, but it’s white. Lots of things to think about here.

Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.

Author @ Off Tackle Empire

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by KennardHusker on Jan 19, 2012 1:27 PM CST reply actions  

I have you guys at 24% and know I included Green and Starling

But would love for someone from the other schools to do this in case I missed someone. I compared Rivals commit list from 2007 to the schools archived rosters from 2008 thru 2011. If there were no jucos then i started at 2010. I was surprised at the number I arrived at for Nebraska expecting it to be higher.

by spudhawk on Jan 19, 2012 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll be honest, I expected higher as well

It feels like kids hear that a position is getting full and then they bail. Nebraska had that happen this year at RB and QB. Not super ideal, but I guess those things happen. So here’s a question for Iowa. Were any of the kids who bailed looking at a stacked depth chart? I mean, I know Coker wasn’t… like, at all, but overall that’s a lot of kids leaving. Maybe it just felt like it was too overwhelming. I honestly think that was Nebraska’s woes as of late (that and multiple assistant coach changes and a HC change).

Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.

Author @ Off Tackle Empire

Next step, Twitter... @KennardHusker

by KennardHusker on Jan 19, 2012 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Off the top of my head

only a small number were: Jacody Coleman was blocked at MLB by the emergence/return of Angerer and Cato was blocked at SS by Sash (was the same year). None of the others, as I recall, were primarily motivated by depth, though it could be a factor for Lowe (Rhabdo victim, hindered his ability to crack the two-deep at CB, but is still a student at Iowa) and Morrow (was supplanted by the Epic One, Brett Greenwood).

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 19, 2012 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Didn't Brinson leave to get PT?

AIRBHG loves the chase.

"Gophers are filthy digging rats"
-one of HFMR's many amazing tags

"It's Northwestern," he explained. "A smart school."
-TMart on jNW reading signals

by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 19, 2012 10:21 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Yea

I think his was a confluence of factors – depth chart, the injuries he faced, and perhaps some homesickness. He was one kid that I wasn’t sorry to see leave – not because he was a bad seed (by any accounts I read, he was a good kid and hard worker), but because things just seemed to all be stacked against him here. Really sucked to hear he couldn’t escape AIRBHG all the way down in Florida.

"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe

by Brock8144 on Jan 20, 2012 7:34 AM CST up reply actions  

That, and there was a family issue

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jan 20, 2012 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I think the three most blatant "I don't like where I am on the depth chart" guys were Coleman, Cato, and Morrow.

Coleman was stuck behind Pat Angerer and Cato and Morrow were stuck behind Brett Greenwood (4 year starter) and Tyler Sash (3 year starter).

It may have been a contributing factor for other guys, but I don’t think it was the primary factor. We’ve had several guys leave after just a year or so, when they were barely acclimated to life in Iowa City, let alone stuck on the depth chart anywhere.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

and, I swear, I'm not trying to be a dick, or unfair

but how many of these guys who left have made much of an impact wherever they landed in a football-y sense? I know Jewel played. We all know of Wegher’s travels/travails. Maybe a few?

by txhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

YOU GOTS THE ANGRY EYES, DAVID CATO!

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

That is such a great gif

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.

by therealCatnuts on Jan 19, 2012 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

As a Bills fan and Sanchez hater

I will rec this gif every time

Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.

Author @ Off Tackle Empire

Next step, Twitter... @KennardHusker

by KennardHusker on Jan 19, 2012 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I am happy

to make this comment about Gang Green, green.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:30 PM CST up reply actions  

It wouldn't surpise me

if recent classes (for the last 5 years or so) are seeing a higher rate, but since recruiting is now such a high profile affair, I don’t know if you’d ever be able to find good historical data. Also, recruiting is different now. A verbal used to mean more than it does now, and just because someone has said that they’re committed, doesn’t stop coaches from continuing to chase them. Obviously, this doesn’t affect the numbers we’re looking at, but what it may affect is the way the players think. Now, if you’re not happy, don’t have playing time, whatever, do the players think back to recruitment and move on with the assumption that all of those suitors who didn’t let up will still be there?

"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." - Lewis Caroll, Alice Through the Looking Glass

by chitownhawkeye on Jan 19, 2012 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Just for the record,

I didn’t count verbals, all of the players had to have signed LOIs to be counted. All the committ info came from Rivals. Some players probably don’t belong like Coe, Ngoumou, even DeMarco Paine who participated in games before the NCAA clearinghouse booted him, but I treated all schools the same and it was startling how many commits never even make it to campus. Now imagine doing this with the SEC. My head would explode.

by spudhawk on Jan 19, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions  

The SEC would probably send an agent to destroy you if you did

Let’s be honest, research into how they ‘recruit’ isn’t looked kindly upon down there.

Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.

Author @ Off Tackle Empire

Next step, Twitter... @KennardHusker

by KennardHusker on Jan 19, 2012 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Could you elaborate, please?

This is something about which I know nothing.

"Woody Orne with the one-handed grab!"

by One_ill_KevinJ on Jan 19, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

There may be some truth to the race issue.

I tend to think that a lot of urban kids, regardless of race, are more likely to feel like they’re “fish out of water” at places like Iowa. Maybe being a different color just heightens that feeling of separateness. Two of the biggest abusers of the lax B12 oversigning rules have been KSU and Iowa State. They’ve been able to bring in big oversigning classes nearly every year and that’s something Iowa has not had the luxury of doing. High attrition is especially painful for Iowa(as mentioned in the article) because it’s a developmental program. Iowa can’t dial up 10 or more four star players a class to replace lost players. They need to keep kids in the program to ’coach them up".

by Steven Dailey on Jan 19, 2012 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Urban vs. Rural is more appropriate

Race, culture, etc. These are all really fair parts of the bigger issue. What’s really painful, though, is that those are things that cannot be fixed. If the culture of a city/campus/region just doesn’t fit, well, it just doesn’t fit. So that goes back to the coaches and who they are targeting. It’s important to find the right type of kid for the area. One of the things I know that Nebraska does is harps on family/religion. They target kids who are big on church and faith. Even TO did that a lot back in the day. If they feel like they have someone looking out for them like they did in high school, they feel more comfortable. It’s not talked about a lot on a national level, but it’s definitely something I’ve noticed a lot when you hear interviews with the 4-5* kids. FWIW, I don’t know how I feel about using religion as a recruiting tool (and not any specific religion necessarily… Abdullah is muslim and talked a lot about how he liked the personal accountability of Ron Brown – Campus Crusade extraordinaire), but it might mitigate risk of losing kids.

Always check the words with the red squiggly line. They mean you probably screwed up.

Author @ Off Tackle Empire

Next step, Twitter... @KennardHusker

by KennardHusker on Jan 19, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree that a big part of it is finding a player who is the right fit.

That may have as much to do with temperament as anything. A kid who has a “star”, BMOC mentality might not fit at a laid-back atmosphere like Iowa’s. One of the Iowa’s consistent problems is consistently getting top quality skill position players. As you say some schools “sell” religion. I believe Ferentz is religious but not a wearing “religion on your shirt sleeve” proselytizer. So, not sure that would be a comfortable fit for his staff. I suspect the way you address this given the cultural, race,and proximity issues is to improve the pull in the push-pull dynamic. Meaning get coaches on the staff who the players are really comfortable with(I think that’s mainly already the case)and improve the coaches and the athletic staffs understanding of the particular challenges that urban kids might have in adjusting and fitting into a place like Iowa City.

by Steven Dailey on Jan 19, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't want to sound like a genderist or something but...

I think some of our skill-position deflections have to do with the kids’ perception of Iowa as a program. It’s like dating: McCall looks at Iowa and says she’s not a supermodel but I can take her home on the first date. When it turns out that Iowa thinks she’s pretty special and has other prospects he’s like, “strait bullshit. you ain’t that pretty. I’m going to Carbondale and she won’t say no.” Editorial comment: he’s right she won’t.

But take a four star kid who commits to Florida. They’re like those idiots on the Bachelor thinking the pretty girl will choose them over the other four-stars with roses.

What I’m saying is they think of Iowa as perhaps something other than a first choice and because they’re awesome (and their moms tell them they’re awesome) playing time or working hard or discipline shouldn’t be a problem.

by rosko on Jan 19, 2012 2:36 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I feel like Florida

is quickly becoming “Rock of Love” Bret Michaels, but otherwise your comparison is apt.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Is the moral, "McCall is with an even uglier girl now?"

Because it made me feel a little better.

"Woody Orne with the one-handed grab!"

by One_ill_KevinJ on Jan 19, 2012 3:24 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

To summarize all of the thoughts:

It’s not Ferentz’s fault. It’s the nature of having 100 18-22 year olds (some of them having never been away from home, seen a snow flake, etc.) in an environment that is completely new to then. Combine that with the stress of college, and the results are unpredictable yet understandable?

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 2:50 PM CST reply actions  

Amen!! The coaches

can only do so much to help these kids out. The kids still have to go to class, workouts, and not get into trouble on their own.

by IowaFan81 on Jan 19, 2012 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but to summarize what I think the other side of the coin is:

Is the coaching staff doing everything they can to help these kids transition? Do they recognize that kids and the world have changed since they started here in ‘99 and that maybe what they did then isn’t all they could be doing without straying from their basic philosophies?

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Basic philosphies about Football or about child raising?

Because last time I checked, their job isn’t to hold your hand and wipe your nose. And to be honest, that’s the last thing I want them to do.
And by doing everything they can, are they supposed to drive them to class? Call them at night to make sure they aren’t out partying?

If you want to be here (at any school on a full-ride scholarship), then act like it

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 4:00 PM CST up reply actions  

If you want to be here (at any school on a full-ride scholarship), then act like it

It’s easy to say that. It’s different when you lose one of every three players you bring in, go 7-6 and be perceived to be on a downswing.

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe the downswing is due to the players to whom I was referring.

Talent leaves when things aren’t given to them? That’s fine by me. If Texas, Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Auburn, Clemson, USC, Nebraska, etc can all have 7-6 seasons, Iowa sure as hell can. That’s part of sports: it don’t last forever.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Or, by extension, the downswing is due to poor recruiting evaluation by the staff.

“it don’t last forever” could cost people their jobs.

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Clarify?

“recruting evaluation”? Talent (football) or personality?

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

The latter.

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 5:58 PM CST up reply actions  

(Mind you, I do believe that Ferentz and his staff do look at these things and question their methods because it should be obvious that player retention is crucial to their development-heavy brand of football. I’m making the argument that I perceive being made by others here.)

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Basic philosophies about Football or about child raising?

Because last time I checked, their job isn’t to hold your hand and wipe your nose. And to be honest, that’s the last thing I want them to do.
And by doing everything they can, are they supposed to drive them to class? Call them at night to make sure they aren’t out partying?

If you want to be here (at any school on a full-ride scholarship), then act like it.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 3:58 PM CST reply actions  

Ross, I believe your final numbers are off.

You DON’T include the 3 that left for the NFL in your final total (which would bring it to 41, not 38), but you then take them OUT of that total (which would then bring it down to 38.) Take out the 3 you mention for career-ending injuries, and your total should be 35, not 32.

Thanks for doing the leg work on this. Very intersesting indeed. Look forward to reading more about this from you.

by CarrollHawk on Jan 19, 2012 4:23 PM CST reply actions  

This is what I get for writing so late at night.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Mike Hlas is in my heeeeead.

(No, seriously, it’s worth reading. Unlike me, he compares Iowa to other programs. SPOILER ALERT: We don’t compare all that favorably. He also has a SEINFELD clip.)

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Jan 19, 2012 5:14 PM CST reply actions  

New guy!

I like it!

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.

by WaterlooChazz on Jan 19, 2012 10:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Does that make you the Juggernaut, WB?

"I’m not going to comment on anything beyond where I’ve been so far." - Gary Barta

by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 19, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions  

in hindsight

Our rb attrition problem would not be prevalent had not the alleged sperm of a football player met the alleged egg of an alleged sister of an alleged football player who allegedly got caught with an alleged substance to get the alleged boot? Had super awesome three headed running back monster not left the team, what would the rb situation look like today? If all three were still hawks? (Not sure if Hampton would have graduated by now)

by RH's Bookie on Jan 19, 2012 8:45 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

That's all the fault of the coaches.

Don’t you get it? You pay someone $3.4 million dollars and he’s supposed to make sure his 101 players don’t: smoke pot, drink, have sex, skip class, fight, steel, get money, drive rental cars, get a free sandwich, get a free t-shirt, meet Ashton Kutcher or Demi Moore, fail a class, qualify to enroll in courses before their enrolled……how hard can it be?

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 9:50 PM CST up reply actions  

And after a few beers...

If you’re a player who has played 3-4 years and started at Iowa, you have a pretty good chance at going to the NFL and do well for yourself.
If you can pass the Ferentz test, you’re pretty much in. Teams know they are getting a pro. That’s a hard row to hoe.

by hawkinsandmelrose on Jan 19, 2012 9:55 PM CST up reply actions  

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