Pythagorean Expectation and the Myth of Luck, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Accept Northwestern
As mentioned in yesterday's INP, our blog buddies at The Only Colors went to great lengths to prove that 2010 Michigan State was in no way like 2009 Iowa, in an attempt to reason how 2011 Michigan State isn't doomed to recreate the 2010 Iowa campaign. TOC provided plenty of evidence to prove this point in the limited context of these two teams, and we have no real arguments with their analysis. However, given that this variance -- "luck" -- is a favorite topic of ours, we decided to dig further. We took nine years worth of standings and points for/against in both conference and overall play -- the entirety of Big Ten data available from ESPN.com -- and the old Bill James pythagorean expectations formula adjusted for football (explained here)1. And we learned that Sparty 2010 wasn't lucky like 2009 Iowa.
No, they were luckier.
The 2010 Michigan State Spartans were the most fortunate team in the last nine years of Big Ten football, with an expected win total of 8.53 against an actual win total of 11, for a pythagorean margin of +2.47. Sparty was nearly a half-win luckier than the second-luckiest team, the 2003 Ohio State Buckeyes (11 wins against 8.99 expected victories for a +2.01), and almost a full win luckier than 2009 Iowa. The top five in overall play (including non-conference), with a couple of familiar faces:
| Rank | Team | Py +/- |
| 1 | 2010 Michigan State | +2.47 |
| 2 | 2003 Ohio State | +2.01 |
| 3 | 2002 Ohio State | +1.80 |
| 4 | 2004 Iowa | +1.80 |
| 5 | 2009 Iowa | +1.58 |
After '10 MSU and '03 OSU comes the 2002 Ohio State national championship squad, already widely considered one of the decade's luckiest teams based on anecdotal evidence but harmed greatly by being a 14-0 squad under the microscope of pythagorean expectation. 2002 OSU falls victim to one of the flaws of pythagorean analysis of football: Nobody's perfect. James' formula was made for baseball, and while the best baseball team in the majors would be somewhat fortunate to win three of four games from the worst, football works with single games in an overall smaller data set. Because OSU didn't shut out every opponent, it's expected to lose some games over time, hence the "luck" of its undefeated season. The top five is rounded out with the completely absurd 2004 Iowa 10-win team, a squad with no running backs by mid-October that somehow rung up double-digit wins with a total margin of victory of +81, and the aforementioned 2009 Hawkeyes, who won 11 but with a larger total margin.
Of course, using the full schedule allows for statistical variance based on strength of non-conference scheduling. If we look solely at Big Ten play, as close to a level playing field as we can get, Sparty still wins. It's just not 2010 Sparty:
| Rank | Team | Py +/- |
| 1 | 2008 Michigan State | +2.16 |
| 2 | 2004 Northwestern | +1.77 |
| 3 | 2010 Michigan State | +1.69 |
| 4 | 2004 Michigan | +1.63 |
| 5 | 2009 Northwestern | +1.53 |
That 2008 Spartan squad went 9-4 (6-2) despite a total margin of victory of +28 and an in-conference margin of -7. In fact, 2008 Michigan State was one of just five teams since 2002 to post a winning record in the Big Ten despite being outscored in conference play. And, in the least surprising finding of the study, three of those five teams were from Northwestern. The first of those, 2004 jNWU, lost at TCU. They lost to Arizona State. They lost by 26 at Minnesota. they lost at Wisconsin and Michigan. They even lost the season-ending contest at Hawaii. But 2004 jNWU also won five conference games by less than a touchdown, so despite being outscored by a whopping 30 points in conference play (translating to a pythagorean expected record of 5-7(3-5), the LOLcats managed to finish 6-6 (5-3). The 2009 Northwestern squad is a mirror image of the prior team: Outscored by 21 due to three double-digit losses and five single-digit wins. 2004 Michigan didn't grossly outperform expectations overall, with only a +1.04 pythagorean margin in all games, but managed to go 7-1 in the Big Ten despite a 16-point loss to Ohio State which brought its aggregate margin of victory below 100.
After the jump, we'll look at who has been most fortunate in the aggregate, the unluckiest teams of the last nine years, and why it might not be a question of luck after all.
As for the less fortunate, it's some of the most disappointing seasons in memory, including the Dark Ages at Penn State and the mid-00's lull at Iowa. In fact, the Hawkeyes not only have two of the luckiest seasons but two of the six unluckiest (and four of the least fortunate sixteen):
| Rank | Team | Py +/- |
| 99 | 2007 Minnesota | -2.74 |
| 98 | 2004 Purdue | -2.73 |
| 97 | 2004 Penn State | -2.46 |
| 96 | 2008 Iowa | -2.46 |
| 95 | 2003 Penn State | -2.36 |
| 94 | 2010 Iowa | -2.12 |
| 86 | 2005 Iowa | -1.68 |
| 84 | 2006 Iowa | -1.58 |
The conference-only numbers improve the 2005 campaign, but also place three Iowa teams in the bottom 10:
| Rank | Team | Py +/- |
| 99 | 2003 Penn State | -2.02 |
| 98 | 2007 Minnesota | -1.85 |
| 97 | 2005 Michigan State | -1.80 |
| 96 | 2009 Indiana | -1.79 |
| 95 | 2002 Wisconsin | -1.64 |
| 93 | 2006 Iowa | -1.54 |
| 91 | 2008 Iowa | -1.46 |
| 90 | 2010 Iowa | -1.44 |
The 2007 Minnesota and 2003 Penn State teams so prominently displayed on both lists were both epically terrible teams, with a combined four wins and one conference win between them. In many ways, they suffer from the same problem as 2002 Ohio State: Because they weren't completely inept and occasionally scored some points, their pythagorean expected win totals are going to register as something. But because there is a limited sample, they didn't get enough games to register more than a few wins, and so we get them skewing low. The more interesting entry into the bottom five is 2004 Purdue, a 7-5(4-4) squad that climbed to as high as #5 in the polls before suffering through a four-game mid-season skid where they lost four key conference games by a total of 10 points. That was the best 7-5 team I've ever seen, including 2002 Purdue, which followed the same template. 2002 Wisconsin is another interesting case study: Despite going 6-0 in non-conference (they started playing AUGUST 23 to fit them all in), the Badgers went a meager 2-6 in the conference, with four single-digit losses. As for Iowa's three or four less-than-stellar seasons, I suppose they can be chalked up to Ferentz's ever-more-staidly determination to take the air out of the football and grind the game into a coin flip; the hallmark of teams appearing at the extremes of this list are close wins and losses.
The most interesting finding of the study: Typically, when a team has "good luck" or "bad luck," it's relatively consistent. Take Illinois, for instance. When I asked readers on Twitter who they thought the luckiest Big Ten team of the last nine years would be, the overwhelming response was 2007 Illinois, Ron Zook's Rose Bowl-losing band of ruffians. However, that team stumbled into the Rose Bowl by virtue of Ohio State's backwards fall into the BCS Championship Game; they weren't a conference champion, and in fact only finished 9-3(6-2) and were only +0.46 in conference play, good for 26th overall but hardly the stuff of legend. Where readers might have gone wrong is in assuming that Illinois' usual results are reflective of baseline variance. In actuality, the Illini have been the Big Ten's most "unlucky" team in aggregate since 2002:
| Rank | Team | Ov +/- | Conf +/- |
| 1 | Northwestern | 9.74 | 8.28 |
| 2 | Wisconsin | 3.18 | 0.34 |
| 3 | Indiana | 2.00 | -2.16 |
| 4 | Ohio State | 1.90 | 1.21 |
| 5 | Michigan | -0.55 | 2.15 |
| 6 | Michigan State | -3.38 | -0.45 |
| 7 | Iowa | -4.37 | -1.21 |
| 8 | Minnesota | -4.65 | -2.46 |
| 9 | Purdue | -7.14 | -3.30 |
| 10 | Penn State | -8.70 | -4.91 |
| 11 | Illinois | -9.31 | -5.75 |
Over the past nine years, Illinois is dropping more than a game per season in variance. They have had only two seasons with a positive overall variance: the aforementioned 2007 Rose Bowl run and, hilariously, their 2-10 2005 season, where they were expected to win just 1.31 games. They haven't had one horrible season to skew the total, either, just a string of consistently lousy results; while the Illini don't have any of the seven worst overall seasons for bad luck, they have four of the next five, all with values of -1.83 or less. Penn State's total, also near a game per season, isn't much better, though their totals are skewed somewhat by the "Dark Ages" seasons in 2003 and 2004; with those years removed, PSU enters Iowa territory.
The fact that most teams have such consistent "luck," when coupled with the fact that close wins and losses appear to be the strongest factor in where a team appears on the list, means this list may not be a measure of "luck," per se, but rather the simple ability to win close games. Since such ability is presumably based in large part on things like on-field experience, efficient playcalling, and clock management, the list could be considered a measure of a coach's in-game ability. Is it any wonder that the conference's biggest late-game buffoon and a geriatric who doesn't even wear a headset sit at the bottom of the list? Purdue's low number, due in such large part to flameouts during the Joe Tiller era (and, to a lesser extent, the futility of post-Tiller 2008), is as much an indictment of the retired polo shirt-wearer as that run of 2004 losses. Minnesota's late-game futility has been chronicled here, repeatedly, and didn't get any better under Brewster (though Brew usually had Minny three or four scores behind his opponent before staging a comeback to cover the spread). Michigan State's successes under Mark "The Warden" Dantonio have nearly nullified the pythagorean hole his predecessor, the legendary John L. Smith, had dug; MSU was -5.90/-4.68 from 2002-2007, a Zook-like performance of -8.86/-7.02 when extrapolated out over nine years.
It's also a credit to Pat Fitzgerald and the late Randy Walker at Northwestern. Even in its worst years, jNWU has outperformed its pythagorean expectations. In every year included in this study, Northwestern had a positive overall pythagorean margin, and in all but one the LOLcats had a positive margin in conference play. Their gigantic lead in the chart above isn't due to one season; it's consistently winning a game to a game and a half more than expected. Northwestern's nine seasons are all within the top 30 overall (eight are within the top 20), and all but 2002's 1-7 Big Ten mark are within the top 22 in conference play. Once may be a random occurrence, and twice a coincidence, but if three is a trend, nine is gospel. Northwestern wins close games. Ditto Bret Bielema and Barry Alvarez at Wisconsin, who don't have an overall season above 1.0 but only one year below -0.2 (Bielema has registered a positive rating in every season). And, while Jim Tressel didn't play too many single-possession games at Ohio State, he had a fantastic record in the ones he did.2
This is an Iowa blog, and so we ask: What does this mean for Kirk Ferentz? Iowa's 4.3 games below expectations overall, and 1.2 games under expectation in the conference. This is despite the fact that Iowa is 7-5 in non-conference games decided by one touchdown or less since 2002. On its face, that nearly half-game a season missed looks suspiciously like a coaching problem. However, given the wide spread between the overall deficiency and intra-conference gap is an indication of a smaller, and more fundamentally Ferentz, explanation: Iowa's ability to blow out a MACrifice or I-AA cupcake raises pythagorean expectations, expectations which are not met when Iowa drops a game to Iowa State or Arizona or Pitt. When it comes to conference play, the blowouts are so rare and so related to the continued employment of Tim Brewster that expectations remain in line with performance. This is not to exonerate Ferentz as a coach; he's lost far, far too many non-conference games, he's one of the least effective clock managers in big-time college football, and his ability to stay close to good teams has the flipside of allowing inferior opposition to keep games tight against Iowa. That philosophy is why Iowa fans can brag about not losing a game by double-digits in more than three seasons, but it's also why the Hawkeyes have such wide swings in pythagorean performance.
1 -- There is a wide variety of research on the proper exponent value for college football, mostly ranging between 2 and 2.5. We used the 2.37 exponent that Pro Football Reference suggested. Because of small sample sizes, football is inherently more difficult to pin down than baseball (which uses the pure pythagorean squared model) and basketball (which uses exponents in the teens).
2 -- Indiana's totals are interesting, but a closer look shows they simply play more close games against out-of-conference opposition than the rest of the conference; close wins over Western Kentucky count just as much as those against Michigan to a blind formula.
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So
Iowa in close games is like the House races on election night. They all end up tilting one way or another. If they go your way, you’re “lucky.” If they go against you, you’re “unlucky.”
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
I suppose so, yes
and, much like dropping some red meat on the ballot to gin up turnout, there are things that can be done to bend “luck” your way. My guess would be that, if you injected Ferentz with truth serum and asked him his basic philosophy, he’d say he wants to keep it close against comparable opposition and expects his team’s ability to execute the plays called and avoid costly penalties to win the margin. The problem is that execution is built on experience, and when Iowa teams don’t execute properly, Ferentz’s weaknesses scuttle nearly every game. 2010 is a prime example: Lack of execution in special teams and the linebacker corps (the latter almost exclusively because of injury, the former because apparently we forgot about special teams for like the seventh year in a row) left the door open for Wisconsin, Indiana, Northwestern, and Ohio State. And when they walked through it, we got the flying monkey show that is the Iowa two-minute drill (except for Indiana, which saved their best and worst for the last minute of the game).
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
by Patrick Vint on Jun 15, 2011 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly.
And I don’t know that you’d need to drug Ferentz to get him to admit it.
"Bama Hawkeye, you know, the Iowa blogger who actually uses reason and analysis." - Patrick Vint
http://www.offtackleempire.com
by Bama Hawkeye on Jun 15, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
thr best brief summation i've seen yet of 2010
if our two minute drill is the flying monkey show, then the steady grinding beatdowns of isu and msu were our ruby slippers. and if I follow, we just fail to execute clicking them together correctly when our lbs and rbs knee ligaments don’t work.
I've been in love (truly) with five women, the Spanish Republic and the 4th Infantry Division.
Developing a better (or, perhaps, any) Plan B might also help.
Maybe not re: linebacker injuries (aside from continuing to develop options; part of the problem last year was that we had to throw multiple freshmen into the fray last year), but given our consistent issues with keeping running backs healthy, maybe it would be prudent to dust off the ’04 offensive playbook once in a while. Particularly when we have experienced, talented upperclassmen at QB, WR, and TE. You know, like we did in 2010.
Or we can just run Coker like crazy, hope he really is Shonn Greene 2.0 and pray like hell he doesn’t get hurt.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
The last option! Please please please, the last option!
Me likey smash-mouth offenses.
(I’m completely serious, this is my dream scenario. 2008 was by far my favorite Iowa offense of the Ferentz era)
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Hope is not a plan
I really hope Coker is the second coming of Shonn Greene, and is able to remain healthy and productive. The problem, as Ross points out, is the KF doesn’t seem to have a plan if that doesn’t happen. Our gameplan, both offensive and defensive, works best if we can run a smash-mouth, ball control offense. The problem is that through random AIRBHG shenanigans, we have not been able to do this most of the previous 5-6 years, and yet we don’t come up with any alternative approach to deal with this contingency.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
by HoyaGoon on Jun 15, 2011 10:33 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Which is all the more frustrating
in a year like, oh, let’s say 2010, where we had a senior QB and experienced WRs.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 15, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
is that realistic though?
I obviously loved watching Greene tear through opposing d’s all season and the highlight of Coker just trucking that Missouri safety (or was he a lb?) will arouse me on the coldest of days, I’m not sure that relying on one back will cut it in the B1G. Best case scenario, per Ross, is having at least two more contributors in the running game and some depth again at LB, which would be awesome.
Whole ‘nother bag of severed monkey peni’ is the offensive playcalling balance. Throwing the occasional 35 yard attempt while running all game and resorting to luck (defined as driving 80 yards with the throw in our two min drill to win the game in the last drive) is just beyond my comprehension. It’s obviously not a consistently successful plan.
I've been in love (truly) with five women, the Spanish Republic and the 4th Infantry Division.
by sailorjerry on Jun 15, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I realize it's not realistic, doesn't make me want it any less
(same comment for HoyaGoon’s similarly excellent point)
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
One thing we seem to be forgetting about '08 is that Jewel Hampton ran for 463 yards
Coker will need to be given a break every now and again. If this hype is right, McCall could be enough to keep this offense moving.
My hopes are set at 1500 yards for Coker this season.
by The Mexican't on Jun 15, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope I don't need to create the Jason White Advisory System this fall.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
maybe you should consider
A plate system showing the correct propertions of rushing yards like the new food pryamid replacement.
Please don't tell me how you hate BSU or their turf...I know all too well and keep my toliet water blue for a reason.
by BoiseHawk on Jun 15, 2011 10:16 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Please do, and make it a color scale that
includes 5 different shades of white.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 17, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
That could actually be pretty amusing.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Something like...
Off-white: for when he is dressed, but OFF the field.
High-gloss white: for when he gets in the game, scores a TD, and does a dance in the end zone.
Snow: for any game we play in the snow.
Ivory: for any game where he trucks someone like an angry elephant.
Ghost white: for any game where he reminds us of the ghosts of Iowa’s running-backs past. (Can be good [Nile Kinnick, Fred Russell], can be bad [Ronnie Harmon, Sam Brownlee?]).
/yes, I’m being unfair to Sam Brownlee there, but I was struggling to think of Iowa RBs that had real negatives.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 17, 2011 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
2002 was all Brad Banks
Which, don’t get me wrong, was fucking awesome. But I’ll take the demoralizing 6-yard carries from Greene over the demoralizing 3rd-and-12 Banks draw play conversion any day. Imposing your will is more fun than flashy plays IMO.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Eh, the 2002 offense imposed their will plenty.
They didn’t have a bulldozer back like Greene to showcase it with, but that offensive line ground opponents into dust and let Freddie Russell get 1250 yards and let Jermelle Lewis get 700 yards.
That offense was also capable of being highly explosive, thanks to Banks, Clark, CJ Jones, and Mo Brown. They were the most well-rounded offense we’ve had at Iowa in the last 10 years, without a doubt.
The 2008 offense really only had one dimension but they were really, really good at it.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I am aware that my vision is skewed on this
You make excellent (and correct) points, I still love 2008 above all.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, certainly.
I was just arguing from a practical standpoint, the ’02 line/offense did just as much will imposing (probably more, really) than the ’08 line/offense.
From an aesthetic standpoint, there was certainly nothing quite like seeing Shonn run over sadsack defenders.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
We'll probably never see another 2002 quality offense
Since Joe Philbun is now off winning Super Bowls at Green Bay.
That O-Line was an NFL caliber line.
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
That O-Line was an NFL caliber line.
Literally.
3 or 4 of them were drafted, and every one of them made it into an NFL camp.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Two of them made over $100M in the NFL
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, Iowa's o-line was ranked 7th nationally in the way too early and probably irrelevant Athlon guide
So maybe we can get smash-mouth regardless of the RB.
7th actually seems low to me
a 1st-rd left tackle, a mid-round center, a late-rd right tackle, and a bevy of excellent options at the two guard spots. To me that sounds Top-5
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
They only had Reiff as third-team all-american LT.
and he was the only one on their all-american list.
Which is surprising
Considering he’s already projected as a first rounder—and even top 10 draft pack—already. Are there a lot of top flight OTs for next year’s draft (I have no idea; this is a serious question)?
by Captain n Diet Coker on Jun 15, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know
I just got the rundown of the Iowa preseason player rankings from hawkeyesports.com this morning.
This might be the year
with that offensive line
He sired a baseball team... An orchestra, if you count the bastards!
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Jun 16, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
It seems to me
that Norm did a pretty good job with a Plan B against Mizzou and KOK has some tricks up his sleeve if Ferentz would loosen the reins.
"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants
Stats. Yum.
Statistically, would the 2004 Penn State-Purdue matchup be the ultimate turd-in-the-punchbowl game?
I vaguely recall that game and it was turd-worthy—but it was mentally washed out by the following game against Iowa. Yes, PSU had two weeks to prepare for Iowa in 2004.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
Mills played his (undoubtedly injured) balls off in that game.
The offensive line, though, was, well, it wasn’t very good.
"I can't go home until the carp is asleep. Because if I see it...swimming...I'll kill it."
by ReadingRambler on Jun 15, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I clicked on the article explaining the math
But my head exploded halfway through. The only reason I can type this is because I memorized the keyboard.
Yes
When it comes to conference play, the blowouts are so rare and so related to the continued employment of Tim Brewster
Hilarious
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
This is scientific proof
that he’s a wizard
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Jun 15, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow. 2004 Purdue
Lost five games by a combined 14 points and were ranked as high as #5 in the nation.
Purdue’s most hated rival? Tillycheeseexplosionface.
Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
This was the Kyle Orton year, correct?
I really thought he was a good QB, and if they hadn’t lost so many games, he would have been drafted much higher.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
That was indeed the Pride of Altoona's senior year.
He was even getting Heisman consideration that year.
Until this happened and everything went poopy for Purdue.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I remember all that.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Also the day of our 33-7 beatdown of OSU.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jun 15, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Good stuff Pat
great read.
Maize n Brew
Because Football is Better with Beer
by Maize n Brew Dave on Jun 15, 2011 8:50 AM CDT reply actions
I don't underdt
"You're going to go out there with a dick full of confidence. Then, you're going to go out there and shoot that confidence all over the stadium." -Blue Mountain State
by Hawkaloogie on Jun 15, 2011 8:56 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I don't understand any of that.
But it seems to refute everything TOC said and paint us in a good light. So, that’s nice.
"You're going to go out there with a dick full of confidence. Then, you're going to go out there and shoot that confidence all over the stadium." -Blue Mountain State
by Hawkaloogie on Jun 15, 2011 8:57 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Love to see data support what we obviously see with the naked eye
…KF believes he has less talent this year, so of course he will press the issue more than he did last year and things will fall repeatedly our way and everyone will think we just had a luckier year.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
WTF! No graphs?
Please ask our friends from GT to spank out some graphicals.
by Stay thirsty, my friends. on Jun 15, 2011 9:23 AM CDT reply actions
Here you go.

Bloggin' at JoePasDoghouse.com
by J.Schnauzer on Jun 15, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Zook Hook FTW!!
"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me
by BStylin Hawkye on Jun 15, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Damn do I love stats and math. Huzzah, BHGP editorship! (and readership, notably UUDD)
I guess the next step is asking “reasons” for good or poor luck. A couple thoughts:
1) Since Nerd U is atop the luck list, does it have something to do with mental acuity or steadiness at the end of games? How would you measure that? Graduation rates? GPA would seem to be a horribly flawed metric.
2) As mentioned briefly by Vint above, does the “keep it close, win on virtue” methodology hurt a team? It appears that what we consider the least risk-taking teams (Iowa, PSU) tend to be on the unlucky side, but OSU bucks that trend. Conversely, While we consider Wisconsin or jNW risk-takers, so would be Purdue.
3) Is there a way to tie in turnover margin, specifically the “luck” aspects tied to that in other statistical models? I tend to think that would be more reliable than win-loss margins in determining “luck”. This method seems to better show the ability of coaches to win close games, rather than determine what most people consider “luck”
One last thought?
4) As a conference overall, the B10 is “unlucky”, with 7 of 11 teams (ha ha, fuck Nebraska) having a negative score in both overall and conference play. Does this say something poor about the statistical model or could it (gasp) say something poor about the B10 truly underperforming as is constantly thrown our way by national media or the SEC?
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
I should proofread once in a while before posting.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
in response to point 4
the reason 7 of the 11 teams are below expectation is simple. Northwestern is so far above the mean that they skew the entire sample by themselves. in conference play its zero sum; NU’s good luck has to be equally represented in bad luck for the other 10 teams.
Conference play or not
Luck will always be a zero-sum game. The team thats wins is lucky, the team that loses is unlucky.
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
"Zero-Sum Game"
would be an awesome bad action movie title.
"Enjoy your diarrhea." • http://youtu.be/zo8NFrmQ_S0
by Bucketochicken on Jun 15, 2011 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
If I had to guess
it’s out there somewhere
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
After a google search,
I think there is a Japanese anime cartoon/movie with that name.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 16, 2011 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions
CHRISTIAN SLATER is a loose cannon cop in a dirty city! JOHN TRAVOLTA is a math genius with a bloody secret!
"I can't go home until the carp is asleep. Because if I see it...swimming...I'll kill it."
by ReadingRambler on Jun 16, 2011 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, but who is the tacked-on love interest?
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 16, 2011 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
That depends on what year it is from.
1990 – Michelle Pfeiffer
2011 – Helen Mirren
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 16, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I would get after Helen Mirren
in a heartbeat.
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
Where do you stand on yesterday's debate about Bette Midler?
Give it a go, or no go?
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 16, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Mirren destroys Bette Midler
I like Midler, but she isn’t really sexy. If Caligula taught me anything, it is that I would be completely out of my depth with Helen Mirren. However, I wouldn’t mind the drowning.
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
a jNWer that is bad at math! Yay!
It’s like finding that five-leaf clover.
The agg totals for either total schedule or conference are both quite negative as opposed to zeroing out.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
You're both kind of correct
Conference play is a closed system, so in theory it should be a zero-sum game. However, because not every team plays every other team in every season, and (probably more significant to the current findings) because the proffered formula isn’t perfect and is based on football in aggregate rather than in the conference, there’s not a perfect zero sum distribution over nine years.
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
by Patrick Vint on Jun 15, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I AM MORE CORRECT!
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Really though, there’s an inherent flaw in the system if 9 years of data gives you nothing close to a zero sum (if that indeed should be the case)
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
as for how northwestern is so far above expectation
I don’t think there’s a simple answer. I’d say pure luck is a large part it, because it’s not logical that Fitz and Randy Walker are that far superior to the rest of the league in managing close games, especially in a league with as many great coaches as the Big Ten.
But since Northwestern has been consistently above the mean for so long, there’s likely something more than luck going on. One possible factor is that NU has had strong quarterback play for the last 9 years (Basanez, Bacher, Kafka, Persa), which would obviously be a big help in close games. I’m not really sure beyond that though. Worthy of further explanation.
"I’m not really sure beyond that though. Worthy of further explanation."
cough cough


"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
by RossWB on Jun 15, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I laughed. A lot.
especially at the first one
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
HFMR does the lord's work.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Admittedly, I haven't read the other replies yet
However, as Vint talked about a little bit, part of the reason for jNW doing so well is the fact that scoring margin is what determines your expected win total, and therefore if you don’t blow many people out (jNW), and especially if you get blown out, you will end up with fewer expected wins.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
In order to truly isolate the "luck" factor
You would really need to have a reasonably accurate gauge of which teams are better than which. Then you could determine the “lucky” teams by creating a metric based on:
a) the number of times you beat teams who were better than you and
b) the number of times you lost to teams who were worse than you
The problems I see with doing this are as follows:
The pecking order changes every year; since we only have 12-ish games each year, we are dealing with a ridiculously small sample size.
The pecking order does not commute: That is, if Team A (Iowa) is better than team B (Penn St) , and Team B is better than Team C (jNW), that does NOT mean that Team A is better than Team C. :-(
So I think it is unlikely we’ll ever be able to truly measure the “luck” factor in CFB.
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 10:55 AM CDT reply actions
Am I misundermastanding this
or didn’t Vint disprove the notion of “Luck”?
"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants
If he really did that
he should be in line for a Nobel prize.
All I know is that whenever I drop my toast, it always lands butter side down. :-P
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
That's because of the unequal weight distribution
The buttered side is heavier, this it tends to pull towards the bottom or “down” side as it falls.
/is totally making this up
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
by HoyaGoon on Jun 15, 2011 11:51 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I would like to test this by strapping buttered toast to my cat.
I’ll let you know how it goes.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
That is illegal in 15 states
Peta has been put on notice.
"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants
Mythbusters did it already
I think this myth was “busted”
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jun 15, 2011 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
The bad luck isn't that the toast lands with any particular side down or not.
The bad luck is that you drop it to begin with.
"Enjoy your diarrhea." • http://youtu.be/zo8NFrmQ_S0
by Bucketochicken on Jun 15, 2011 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
And by bad luck I mean clumsiness.
"Enjoy your diarrhea." • http://youtu.be/zo8NFrmQ_S0
by Bucketochicken on Jun 15, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
And I would know, because I can be pretty clumsy someti- OW FUCK MY TOE *wince*
"Enjoy your diarrhea." • http://youtu.be/zo8NFrmQ_S0
by Bucketochicken on Jun 15, 2011 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
And by "you" I mean Doc Killington, not Hoya.
"Enjoy your diarrhea." • http://youtu.be/zo8NFrmQ_S0
by Bucketochicken on Jun 15, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
The important thing though, is that toast is fucking awesome.
"Enjoy your diarrhea." • http://youtu.be/zo8NFrmQ_S0
by Bucketochicken on Jun 15, 2011 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
No.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jun 16, 2011 3:57 AM CDT up reply actions
i wouldnt say he disproved it
he showed that a couple programs (Northwestern and Illinois) have been consistently above or below the mean over a few years. that would indicate that there’s more than luck involved, but luck is still going to be a big factor in any football game.
Being consistently above or below the mean
does not necessarily disprove the luck factor.
Just like tossing a coin, if I get ten heads in a row, that doesn’t mean the probablities have changed from 50%.
Small sample sizes are ultimately what kill these types of analysis. (Although they are fun to play with.)
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
if so, then he's much smarter and more succinct than any previous living mathematician
Will Hunting is jealous.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
so you're saying the Hahvahd Bah douchebag is Ezra?
(Because Will is Better Than him)
I like puns.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 1:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The Bill James method attempts to do just that
a reasonably accurate gauge of which teams are better than which. Then you could determine the "lucky" teams by creating a metric
based on expected wins which uses an ethereal ranking system rather than your specific 1 thru 11 ranking.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
The problem there is
you are trying to apply a guassian distribution to talent and luck. A ‘lucky’ team doesn’t need a considerable amount of ‘lucky’ plays to swing a game in their favor. They simply need one or two lucky plays that considerably alter the course of the game.
However, the gaussian distribution based on pure talent seems like a logical analytical approach.
"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler
by psuphysicist on Jun 15, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Also
‘better than you’ seems to be subjective. A team could win a game, was better than their opponent, but still needed luck to pull off the win.
"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler
by psuphysicist on Jun 15, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Or you can have a team lose
that was still greatly advantaged through luck
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
I'm interested, from what distribution do you imagine talent is drawn?
I agree, luck would be possibly something more like poisson.
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
I think a reasonable model is still a guassian
At least in the distribution of talent across the pool of high school athletes. Now, who gets which kids, and what impact those kids have on their respective programs are probably much harder to model
"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler
by psuphysicist on Jun 15, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess my point was
that using available metrics, talent could be reasonably inferred and used to make fairly accurate predictions about the outcomes of games. Luck, on the other hand, would need a much more comprehensive study and analysis of an entire games worth of plays and the likely outcome specific plays had on the outcome.
"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler
by psuphysicist on Jun 15, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
If you can figure out which games were the result of luck
your standard deviation for predicting games based purely on talent lowers. That makes sense, since those ‘lucky’ wins are, by definition, statistical anamolies.
"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler
by psuphysicist on Jun 15, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
It almost borders on a kind of evolutionary genetic analysis
you need to model randomness, but also account for determinant processes that may take advantage of random events. It is like a selection model (maybe I am way off base).
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
I think that would actually be a reasonable start
The toughest part of the model is the subjectivity when determining which specific plays were 1)lucky and 2)had a massive impact on the outcome of the game.
I’ve got a ways to go on my applied computational math, so I’ll leave this model for someone else to develop.
"Penn State is the standard for success with honor. Period. I can’t even believe we’re even discussing that" - ReadingRambler
by psuphysicist on Jun 15, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
They have certainly been able to address those issues in genetic modeling
I am not sure how you would do it in football.
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
I did a little work on it.
I was hoping you could look it over.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jun 16, 2011 4:00 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cool stuff
One thing I saw that was interesting was how many of the “lucky” teams are connected to the “unlucky” teams, e.g. 2004 NW (lucky) beat 2004 Purdue (unlucky) by 3 points; 2008 MSU (lucky) beat 2008 Iowa (unlucky) by 3 points; and 2009 NW (lucky) beat 2009 Indiana (unlucky) by 1 point.
I too wonder if this is connected to Iowa’s conservative play once they get a lead, but another thing may be the way Iowa slows the game down. Fewer plays means closer games, in general, and more variable outcomes, i.e. more “lucky” and “unlucky” wins. Fight For Iowa did a good post on this recently.
It may just be, though, that football is a really random sport. When you only play eight conference games, a few bad series can mean the difference between 6-2 and 4-4, whereas it would be pretty hard for a basketball team to go from winning 75% of their games to 50% based on an equivalent number of possessions.
HEC is back now that the NBA playoffs are over!
Yay!!
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Jun 15, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
No, he's back now that
math and graphs are in play.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Jun 15, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Some interesting material at that link
Even if it’s cleverly hidden in a ton of typos and spelling/grammatical errors to keep out the riff-raff
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, yeah...
I really need a better proof reading process than just running a spelling/grammar check in MS Word.
The word is Fight, Fight, Fight for Iowa
by fightforiowa on Jun 16, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Another thing to consider
I think we would all place injuries and weather in the category of luck, yet not all teams are affected equally by those factors. For example, when a team like Iowa or jNW loses a key player to injury, it likely hurts the performance of the team far more than OSU or PSU, who have a much deeper talent pool.
Similarly, one would expect that high-powered passing teams would be much more impacted by bad weather than a grind-it-out team like Wisky.
So even if the “luck” is evenly distributed, the outcomes might not be.
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 11:21 AM CDT reply actions
Wisky is not a grind it out team they throw the ball a lot which is why they didn’t have to stick to the ground game when it was working against TCU because they’re really a balanced team with good receiving options and playcalling wasn’t to blame for the Rose Bowl loss at all it was all lack of execution by the damn receivers who couldn’t hold onto anything or Tolzien who couldn’t hit the wide side of a barn but absolutely not the fault of Bielema of Chryst.
/Wisky fan’d
well yeah, but
Wisky has big backs like John Clay, who I think weighed in at 350 pounds and was real slow and Iowa totally hammered him in that one game and they have lots of criminals on their team and Bielema is a major douchebag and only talks to recruits after seeing who Iowa is talking to and did you know that he has a hawkeye tatto on his leg and he has a stupid haircut and the fans up in Madison are really mean to Iowa fans and they like to eat cheese.
/Iowa fan’d
by DrHenryKillinger on Jun 15, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
mmmmm cheese
That’s all I saw out of that because the rest of the characterizations are so completely false. I myself have NEVER said any of those things when arguing with Wisky fans.
He also loves him
some Bud Light
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Jun 15, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't trust anyone who doesn't like to eat cheese, frankly.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Unfortunately, yes.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I'll give you reason not to trust me.
I’m now going to get tickets to the Minnesota game and loot your place while I’m in town.
by The Mexican't on Jun 15, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Fortunately, my home is guarded by roving bands of Hmong street gangs.
DO YOUR WORST.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Those Hmongs are only casing your garage...
so they can steal your ride.

We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 15, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
No and no.
This is clearly the vehicle for Mr. Bob Ross:

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jun 15, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Hood locks PLUS duct tape
they should just go ahead and name this the demolition derby WINNER right now. Plus, it runs like a Deere and has an impressionist paint job. This is clearly a superior automobile to anything you or I drive.
"Pockets full of weed, chewing tobacco, wrapping papers and dental dams"
--HFMR Running the Beermile (tfj @ HawkeyeRecon)
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jun 15, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it's the huge erection it has
My porn name is HogOfHawkness
by HeartOfHawkness on Jun 16, 2011 4:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmong gangs hmake hme so hmad.
"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants
by Kluginator on Jun 15, 2011 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well done.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Jun 16, 2011 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I also think that Iowa's style of play
increase the effect of injuries. Before his hasty entry into the jNW game in 2009, Vandenberg wasn’t even getting many practice snaps. Many of Iowa’s backups don’t get much game experience.
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
True
Which is an area where the ‘keep it close’ mentality hurts us because blowout wins are usually when the backups get PT
My porn name is HogOfHawkness
by HeartOfHawkness on Jun 16, 2011 5:00 AM CDT up reply actions
I totally gave the finger to the 2002 Ohio State team's place on that chart.
Brad Banks forever.
"I can't go home until the carp is asleep. Because if I see it...swimming...I'll kill it."
by ReadingRambler on Jun 15, 2011 12:02 PM CDT reply actions
It is not for lack of trying
"but he is a worthless man, otherwise he wouldn't be so good a piper" -Antisthenes
I nearly committed suicide when Bellanca admitted to liking Fitz.
"I can't go home until the carp is asleep. Because if I see it...swimming...I'll kill it."
by ReadingRambler on Jun 15, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
While I haven't read the post that prompted this one
I cannot fathom how any sane person could not think MSU was lucky this past season. Considering they were thoroughly embarrassed in their 2 losses, I think it showed they were not a “true” 11-win team.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
I hate to spoil magical thinking about Northwestern, but...
Teams that rarely lose big, but sometimes win by large margins will end up with a negative score in this equation. Teams that mostly win by close scores, but occasionally get blown out will have a positive score (i.e. my Wildcats). So Iowa’s negative number may be more about their ability to keep it close when they lose than any sort of bad luck or coaching problems (in other words, be happy about it). NU needs to get this number down (mostly by finishing opponents) if they want to take the program to the next level.




















