College Football Player Development Part Two: What Does It Mean?
The UpUpDownDown post on which teams and conferences excel at player development has been examined and reexamined by the best of the college football blogosphere and, well, not the best. The numbers have been examined by every Rivals message board with a pulse and, aside from that Nebraska guy who wanted to count Johnny Rodgers and Jerry Tagge, there have been remarkably few criticisms of the methodology. So well done, UUDD.
Once the process was examined and accepted, the next inevitable question began springing up: What does it all mean? Why is it that USC, Ohio State, and Iowa do such a good job of turning their players into pros (inevitable "because at USC and OSU they already are pros" jokes notwithstanding) while the division formerly known as the Big XII North is so terrible? The theories:
The "System" Theory (via UpUpDownDown)
From the author himself, the System Theory is relatively simple: The "smashmouth" pro style offenses of the Big Ten (and, to a lesser extent, the Pac-10) prepare players for NFL schemes where they will be called upon to do nearly the same thing:
First, while the Big 12 does an acceptable, albeit subpar, job of developing offensive prospects, the league is brutal when it comes to developing defenders and linemen. This seems like strong evidence for the play-style hypothesis, since those are exactly the areas one would expect to suffer under a passing-emphasis style. The Big Ten's development profile also reflects its reputation, but in a good way. The Big Ten does not struggle in any area of player development, but it truly shines at bringing along defenders and the men in the trenches. Smash-mouth football is alive and well in the Big Ten, and tangibly benefiting its players. I'm sure that Big Ten and Big 12 programs go head to head for more than a few prospects each year, and defenders in particular should heed these numbers - choosing the Big 12 means you are accepting a big hit to any NFL aspirations.
The response from Big XII country (a/k/a Texas and the former Indian Territories) was that Texas and OU routinely land picks at the top of the draft, thereby showing that it's not a question of talent. What the UT/OU contingent doesn't realize is that their argument only solidifies the System Theory. At the top of the draft, teams are drafting in large part on athletic potential. The home run, 4.3 40, 35 rep combine animals at the top of the first round are being chosen for precisely those numbers. Even quarterbacks, which generally undergo a completely different set of physical tests of arm strength, height, etc., are examined primarily on measurable physical attributes. But later in the draft, where teams like Iowa really land their players, it's no longer a sprinting contest. The margins between second- and third-day players are minimal, so teams look instead at the ability of a pick to fill a spot and immediately contribute. That requires technique and football intelligence, and that's where the Big Ten seems to excel.
Still, I don't believe style of play explains everything. While between-the-tackles football might better prepare a lineman for the NFL, it still doesn't change the fact that virtually every player in the draft will have to learn a completely new system upon their selection. "Pro-style" schemes in college still aren't pro schemes; Bill Callahan showed what happens when that is attempted. A player from a "smashmouth" football conference may have a technique edge, but that would likely be the extent of the benefit.
Further, and possibly most importantly, the perception of the Big Ten as a three-yards-and-cloud-of-dust conference is, at this point, virtually untrue. The study examined 2002-present; during that time, Purdue, Northwestern, and Indiana have run spread schemes almost exclusively. Illinois ran spread schemes with Juice Williams. Minnesota tried it for a year or three. Michigan spent three years with RichRod. Ohio State has experimented with pistol and other spread concepts. Even Joe Paterno has used the spread (in high definition!) for a significant chunk of time. In fact, the only teams to completely resist have been Iowa, Wisconsin, and Michigan State; we'll get to the significance of that later. Needless to say, though, when more than half your conference is running non-traditional offenses, you're no more "pro-style" than the SEC.
The "Rivals Is Shit" Theory (via MGoBlog)
The counterpoint, and I think a valid one, comes from Brian (of course). In it, he states the obvious: Linemen are more difficult to scout, linemen are where the Big Ten butters its bread, and Rivals is too profit-oriented or lazy to spend too much time figuring out which linemen are good:
I think there may another element at work: scouting services overrating certain sections of the country and underrating others, particularly the Midwest. Rivals (the source of the rankings used) doesn't even have a Midwest analyst. Meanwhile, OL rankings are particularly inaccurate since many high school kids need to put on 50 pounds before they can play in college. The flipside—skill position players more easily projectable—sees a much, much lower spread amongst conferences. The worst-performing conference is the ACC at 94% of expectation; the best is the Big East at 108%. That's a much lower spread than you see in the D and OL numbers, one that looks like an even distribution distorted by a little randomness.
If there was a regional bias in recruiting rankings, hard-to-evaluate OL would be the place it would show up most prominently. I think there is. Your ratings are just wrong when Wisconsin has two four-star linemen in the last five years, as they do on Rivals. They are not evaluating linemen correctly. I'm not sure what Big 12's hole of suck on defense represents but I'd be more convinced it was a playstyle thing if they were running 3-3-5s or something. Going up against Blaine Gabbert and a bunch of other passing spreads doesn't make much difference to anyone but a few linebackers, it seems.
This appears extremely plausible, especially given the success of programs like Iowa, built on a parade of 2- and 3-star rated recruits some part-time scout watched once. It's how Chad Greenway falls through the cracks by playing 8-man football in South Dakota. It's also how Rivals finds the time to rank the top 90 recruits in Georgia while providing top 25 lists in Michigan.
The problem with this theory lies in the Ohio State and Michigan conundrum, though. If players are underrated by the scouting services and yet the Big Two continue to stock classes full of four- and five-star recruits from the upper Midwest, either those players are all such sure things that even the most southern-fried Rivals scout can pick them out or they're actually deserving of, like, eight stars. The performance of blue chips at both those schools (and, let's face it, Iowa) proves otherwise.
Where I think Brian is right is in the evaluation of linemen. It's hard enough to evaluate line play at the D-I level; it's got to be damn near impossible against the wide variety of suck that usually lines up across from a top high school offensive lineman. Throw in the dramatic physical changes that occur during the typical freshman offensive line prospect's inevitable redshirt season and projecting them to a college junior is reduced to rolling a 21-sided die. The list of five-star washout linemen is long and distinguished for precisely that reason. So when the Big Ten, where linemen (especially guards and centers) are bred from birth, keeps putting linemen in the NFL as the numbers indicate, it's because they do a better job of identifying line talent than Rivals can.
The "ESS EEE SEE" Theory (via EDSBS)
We now turn to Spencer Hall, who gets all realpolitik in his analysis:
The gap between the B1G and the SEC is probably best illustrated by the BCS probability numbers in the chart; the SEC is currently a set of programs engineered to get to the BCS, while the Big Ten and Pac-12 have this curious idea that you should just sign a maximum number of recruits and not get rid of them.
So in short: If you want a program to commit completely to you and your development, the Big Ten is a better deal, and if you want to win BCS games, you should go to the SEC, and if you don't want to go to BCS games because you like the first week of January off but STILL go to the NFL, the ACC is your best choice. (Hey, um, the ACC actually sounds like the best deal here for the "economical" (i.e. lazy like ourselves) student. Well done, ACCers.)
When your statistical model includes players recruited, the theory goes, the blatant oversigning/cutting/medical redshirting/giggitying of the SEC is placed at an inherent disadvantage. When you recruit 47 four-star recruits for your 18 open spots, you're always going to have a bigger denominator in the Development Ratio than a comparable Big Ten or Pac-10 school and no way of increasing the numerator above those 18 scholarships. This is unquestionably true, and it explains much of the SEC's lackluster performance in the first study. It does not, however, explain Duke or Kansas State or Iowa State, who could have three open scholarships between them and not fill the class without making a trip to the MAC castoff pile. This, while correct, is a half-solution.
The "Repeats and Retreads" Theory
Here's where we get to the new ideas. Take a look at the list of the top 14 player development programs again:
| Ranking | School | Recruits Drafted | BCS Expectation | Development Ratio |
| 1 | USC | 48 | 26.0 | 184% |
| 2 | Ohio St. | 36 | 19.7 | 183% |
| 3 | Iowa | 22 | 13.0 | 169% |
| 4 | California | 24 | 15.1 | 158% |
| 5 | Wake Forest | 10 | 6.8 | 146% |
| 6 | Clemson | 23 | 16.1 | 142% |
| 7 | Cincinnati | 10 | 7.1 | 140% |
| 8 | Virginia Tech | 21 | 15.5 | 135% |
| 9 | Connecticut | 11 | 8.4 | 131% |
| 10 | Pittsburgh | 18 | 13.7 | 131% |
| 11 | Georgia | 30 | 22.8 | 131% |
| 12 | Texas | 29 | 22.5 | 128% |
| 13 | Penn St. | 20 | 15.6 | 128% |
| 14 | Wisconsin | 16 | 12.6 | 126% |
Now, remember what we are evaluating: The ability of coaches and programs to get players to the NFL. The coaches and programs at the top of that list have to excel at two things in particular: Identifying high school talent and maximizing the 3-5 years they get with that talent. Now remember that the period of the study is essentially 2002-2008, and think about the coaches at the top programs. At Southern Cal, Pete Carroll was as secure as any coach in America throughout the period. Ditto Tressel at OSU, Ferentz at Iowa, Tedford at Cal, Jim Grobe at Wake Forest, Frank Beamer at Virginia Tech, Randy Edsall at UConn, Mark Richt at Georgia, Mack Brown at Texas, and Joe Paterno at Penn State. Of the top 14 programs, only 4 changed coaches in the six years studied. And, of those four, two stayed in-house. While Clemson changed coaches over that period of time, they hired wide receivers coach Dabo Swinney and avoided a mass exodus. The same holds for Wisconsin, which appointed Bret Bielema as the heir to Barry Alvarez's throne two years before he actually took over, ensuring a seamless transition.
When there is no turmoil, no threat that the coach won't be there tomorrow, players stay in the program. They finish their 3-5 years, and they develop, and they become pros. But stability doesn't just give a team a leg up in developing the guys they have. It also gives the program time to develop the recruiting connections necessary to find the diamonds in the rough, to ignore Rivals ratings and keep an ear to the ground. It's how you get Chad Greenway or Bob Sanders or Shonn Greene, all players largely ignored by scouting services. When you can find guys who are untouched by everyone else, who have a desire to play, and who carry that chip on their shoulder from being ignored, your work in "developing" that player is half done.
On the other hand, in the cauldron of the SEC and Big XII, where coaches are discarded constantly and with little more cause than one bad season, there is no continuity. The top programs still do fine in recruiting, due in no small part to the reasons espoused by Mr. Cook, but they still produce NFL players at or near the rate expected by the development ratio. The have-nots, with the same coach-killing fan bases and none of the recruiting cache, cycle through coaches at an ever-quickening rate, only ensuring more players leave via transfer. At places like Kansas State, Texas Tech, Kansas, and West Virginia, where meddling athletic directors dismiss coaches for any reason they can find, the results are underwhelming (even when programs like Tech and WVU win more than they should with the talent at their disposal).
This brings us to the outliers, of sorts: Cincinnati and Pittsburgh. Cinci is certainly an odd lot here: It lost a coach to Michigan State, and brought in an heir apparent of such high caliber that he eventually went to Notre Dame. Their results can be chalked up to two excellent hires. Pitt, on the other hand, replaced the mediocre Walt Harris with the equally mediocre Dave Wannstedt. And yet, despite his mediocrity, Wannstedt put players in the League. Which brings us to the second thread linking these coaches: NFL retreads. Three of the top ten -- Wannstedt (former Bears and Dolphins head coach/coordinator), Pete Carroll (former Patriots HC; now Seahawks HC), and Kirk Ferentz (Ravens offensive line coach) -- have NFL ties and know how to use them. You hear year-in, year-out how Ferentz works to get his players to the NFL, talking with personnel people throughout the league; given his ties to Bill Belichick and the Baltimore front office, it's no surprise his players often end up in New England, Baltimore, and Kansas City (led by former Patriots front office guy and Ferentz confidant Scott Pioli). These guys have connections from their past NFL stints that, when combined with their superior high school scouting and sales pitch, work best to put players in the professional ranks. It's no surprise these guys so thoroughly outperform expectations.
It's not even a chicken-and-egg issue, because coaches aren't paid to develop players as much as win games (and, as Wannstedt and Ron Zook -- whose track record for landing guys in the pros while simultaneously wallowing in mediocrity at Florida and Illinois is truly impressive -- show, the two are not necessarily correlated). The coaches who win a sufficient number of games and have that track record have an ace in the hole, a better recruiting pitch, which in turn leads to even more wins and more players in the NFL. The players keep the coach employed, and the coach in turn makes sure the players get paid on graduation. It's symbiotic, and it's one big reason (if not the only reason) why the teams at the top of the development list are where they are.
140 comments
|
10 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Very well done
I have been following this through many of the blogs that it has been discussed and all the different theories are very interesting. I think that your theory of stability is one of the most if not the most compelling I have seen. I also do like MGOBlog’s theory on how linemen are rated. Couldn’t we do the same research that was done in the first articles first section “Stars Matter” on lineman only and see if there is as strong of a correlation? Not all of the theories discussed can be tested but I think that one could be and I would be interested to see what it shows. (I am not doing it, much too lazy)
He sired a baseball team... An orchestra, if you count the bastards!
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on May 4, 2011 1:18 PM CDT reply actions
.
Here’s an in depth post from an MGoBlog reader that uses UUDD’s stats to check Brian’s theory. Spoiler alert, I haven’t finished reading it yet.
by theflagshopisoutofstock on May 5, 2011 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting
I have to sit and digest this before I have full thoughts on the subject, but I have to admit I have some very strong ‘chicken or egg’ concerns at a different place in your coaching stability theory than you mention: When coaches develop talent and win, they get longevity. Even in coaching quagmires like the ones you mention. So maybe developing talent breeds the longevity at the top of the chart, and not the other way around. At this point I think the best explanations are the “style of play” and the “linemen ratings suck” theories (the offensive skill position accuracy strengthens this one considerably), but I’ll have to think a little bit more about it.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
Also, I'm pretty certain I put almost zero weight into "NFL connections" of their coaches getting players drafted
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 4, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I was actually going to go the opposite way.
If you’re trying to decide whom to take (because it’s not like there is some clear-cut line between guys), wouldn’t you almost always take the guy recommended by someone you trust?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I think they pick the guy that runs faster or jumps higher
I think it’s pretty rare to place a college coach’s recommendation as anything more than one of the many pieces of the puzzle.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 4, 2011 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
and if one runs faster and the other jumps higher?
or one lineman scores higher on the wunderlich and the other benches more?
Unless you know better (which I’d love to know, actually), aren’t we both just talking out of our ass and guessing?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Al Davis
Has used the measurables it seems almost exclusively and the Raiders consistently suck. There has to be something else, my vote is for a fair amount of luck but I am sure I am talking out my ass.
"Sometimes the truth gets in the way of a good story" - KF
by The Bacon Explosion on May 5, 2011 7:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The Raiders DO put an overly heavy emphasis on speed
but another reason their classes suck is due to Davis’ obsession with getting “his” guy. Once he sees something he likes or that he thinks he’s the only one who knows about he becomes single-minded. Davis is also really big into pursuing “legacy” players; if you dad, cousin, barber knew Al and you play football there’s a good chance you could end up in the black and silver.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm willing to admit that the Raiders could be the exception to the rule.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
We're both just talking out of our asses
I surmise that if you tease out the data, there’s very little correlation between “connections” and draft picks, but again that’s just a guess.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Without clicking on the link...
HEre is my (ReadingRambler) analysis of the Bleacher Report article.
I have several observations to make on the article while I do my analysis.
Firstly 1) I really like the title. “USC football Trojans are no. 1 NFL football factory.” It is important to make sure the reader (You or maybe someone else. We have many readers here. Click here for new pictures of Maria Sharapova.) knows that USC football Trojans produce the most players for NFL football. We can’t have you thinking that USC men’s basketball Trojans or USC men’s club wrestling is no.1 NFL football factory. Howeva, I think that what I said there is possible because USC is no. 1 at everything! Fight on! Durr durr….durr durr durr…..durr durr durr durr…durrr durr durr durr durr durr. That is my impression of the USC fight song. It doesn’t work very well in text form.
Secondly 2) I have to use the toilet now.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
Seriously, though
Excellent, excellent read, Pat. I especially enjoyed the EDSBS quote, part of which is signature-worthy stuff.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 4, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
The link to pictures of Maria Sharapova doesn't work
I’ve clicked on it like 100 times now!
Also I liked the bit in the article when they demonstrated that 4+5=9
Brunettes not fighter jets
If I may
I have a comparison. The Bleacher Report is the Duke of football (or really anything) analysis.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 4, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
As with most things in life
No one answer is going to be completely correct, but rather at least a little bit of all of the reasons stated above. Do “systems” produce wins but NFL execs are hesitant to draft players from those schools? Yes. Do scouting services rate linemen poorly? Yes. does oversigning hurt the SEC? Hell yes. So far, I would tend to believe that your theory on longevity holds the most weight out of all the theories I’ve read so far; but it is important to remember that even if coaching longevity is the most strongly correlating factor in the development ratio, it is still only one factor out of god knows how many.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
It does not, however, explain Duke or Kansas State or Iowa State, who could have three open scholarships between them and not fill the class without making a trip to the MAC castoff pile. This, while correct, is a half-solution.
Not necessarily true: you coincidentally mention two of the six biggest oversigners in K-State and ISU. The same features that effect the SEC could effect those two schools.
Interestingly, there are four schools who average less than 24 signees a year in the SEC: Florida, Georgia, Tennesse, and Vandy. UF, UGA, and Tennessee are three of the four highest SEC teams in the FBS development ratio. There could be something to this theory, however it’s not a perfect inverse ratio: Auburn has performed well in developing talent in spite oversigning.
@jschnauzer
Bloggin' at http://joepasdoghouse.com
great followup
when i think of BR or the SEC or what happened at the end of uudd’s post all I can think of is the onions article nation shudders at large block of uninterrupted text
It’s Athens and Sparta, its the wise and the wordy vs the armed and the dumb. Here they come…
I've been in love (truly) with five women, the Spanish Republic and the 4th Infantry Division.
This
…it’s because they do a better job of identifying line talent than Rivals can.
I would say that most college recruiters can identify talent a hell of a lot better than Rivals, Scout, or any of the other recruiting services. Let’s put it this way: if those so called experts at the recruiting services really were so great, wouldn’t you think they would have a recruiting job at some of the top schools instead of working for a de facto “glamour” magazine and putting out their bullshit trite that spills all over the internet?
"The possibility of physical and mental collapse is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride!" HST
True on some levels perhaps.
But I’m sure just as many of those guys prefer having a job with far more security, less scrutiny and sans the absurd hours while still getting to be around the sport they love. There’s a reason why so many coaches stay in broadcasting once they’ve been fired/walked away.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 4, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I am sure you are right.
I simply have no love for those condescending bastards. Anyways, thanks for opening my bias eyes and exposing them to reality.
"The possibility of physical and mental collapse is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride!" HST
Further, scouting and coaching are different things.
I think one could be a great scouter, but not be a good coach for various reasons.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Im happy about this report
mostly because its the first time in a while that news has passed around that will help Iowa instead of hurt us. Ferentz should save this article and bring it up whenever possible
by justsomehawkeyefan on May 4, 2011 3:36 PM CDT reply actions
He would need to be aware of the internet to do that.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 4, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Words, so many words.
It is really a great follow-up on a great initial article. This is what I was trying to say yesterday about why we get players into the NFL, but moreover, why they continue with teams long after the flashier players from other conferences have gone.
Battles are won with a hammer, wars are won with a scalpel
Clearly you're not reading "Inside the Shoe"
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 4, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
You should have just read my review!
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 4, 2011 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that it's absolutely brilliant
that mgoblog drilled into Big Ten LOS superiority on May … 2.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
by Bellanca on May 4, 2011 4:47 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That reminds me.
If they had gone through one more year of exciting RichRod football, would they have just started denying the existence of guys like Rob Renes, LaMarr Woodley, Mark Messner, Jon Runyan, et al?
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 4, 2011 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Off Topic:
Anybody been over to OBNUG yet and called them cheaters? Could be fun.
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on May 4, 2011 6:05 PM CDT reply actions
If what they did was cheating
the NCAA should burn USC to the ground and unleash hockeybear on Columbus
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 4, 2011 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait... are you trying to say they shouldn't do those things anyway?
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I stand corrected.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 4, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
to be fair, they totally cheated at tennis
by justsomehawkeyefan on May 4, 2011 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
So what were they charged with?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 4, 2011 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Excellent breakdown
Great discussion Patrick. I think you definitely hit the big factors that would influence those development numbers. While more than happy to be credited with the “system theory”, I do think that comes well-second in effect after the quality (and continuity) of coaching.
With respect to the “Rivals is shit” theory" (regional recruiting biases) I had one more piece of data to throw out there. Its tricky to separate systematic regional biases from differences between conferences in player development. For example, if recruits from the midwest are outperforming their star rankings, is that because they were under-ranked, or because they mostly went to the Big Ten and were better developed? But here is a simple attempt at separating those variables.
Fraction drafted – BCS Recruits from Big Ten states
Signed with Big Ten team … 2-star: 0.068, 3-star: 0.104, 4-star: 0.207, 5-star: 0.440
Signed outside Big Ten …… 2-star: 0.037, 3-star: 0.070, 4-star: 0.183, 5-star: 0.333
Fraction drafted – BCS Recruits from Pac 12 states
Signed with Pac 12 team …. 2-star: 0.067, 3-star: 0.073, 4-star: 0.176, 5-star: 0.355
Signed outside Pac 12 ……. 2-star: 0.025, 3-star: 0.037, 4-star: 0.109, 5-star: 0.250
Fraction drafted – BCS Recruits from SEC states
Signed with SEC team ……. 2-star: 0.039, 3-star: 0.099, 4-star: 0.147, 5-star: 0.360
Signed outside SEC ………. 2-star: 0.046, 3-star: 0.076, 4-star: 0.168, 5-star: 0.519
Fraction drafted – BCS Recruits from Big 12 states
Signed with Big 12 team ….. 2-star: 0.029, 3-star: 0.067, 4-star: 0.165, 5-star: 0.448
Signed outside Big 12 …….. 2-star: 0.042, 3-star: 0.087, 4-star: 0.160, 5-star: 0.313
Remember that the Big Ten and the Pac 12 were the top player development conferences. And here it is super-clear that recruits from their footprints develop better when they sign with those conferences than they do when they leave.
Compare this to the player-development laggards – the SEC and the Big 12. Their profile is at best mixed, and in fact recruits from their footprints seem to do a bit better when they leave home, and get away from those poor-development conferences.
To me that data points pretty strongly towards player-development, rather than regional recruiting biases, as being the major effect.
by UpUpDownDown on May 4, 2011 8:24 PM CDT reply actions 18 recs
Will you come to Vegas with me?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 4, 2011 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He already went once with Charlie, didn't like it much
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 4, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Even without your amazing data analysis
You’ll fit in nicely here
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on May 5, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
We should totally gamble together.
I want to be Paul Newman.
“Sorry I’m late, guys, I was takin’ a crap!”
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 4, 2011 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I picture you more as Jackie Gleason.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I was thinking
Joe Dirt
He sired a baseball team... An orchestra, if you count the bastards!
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on May 5, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
But I want to be Paul Newman!
I never get to be Paul Newman!
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Start eatin' some eggs and we'll revisit the topic.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Has anyone ever successfully communicated with Rambler?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the only language that he speaks fluently is historical metaphor
I dabble
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Your mom is a Rue Sans Joie.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
You can summon him...
By starting this discussion: Which was the better archer? The English longbowman or the Mongol horseman?
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on May 5, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
He always favors whitey
(or less racist-like, he has too much reverence for Western military warfare, and the Civil War especially)
He’ll choose the English longbowman, and he’ll be wrong. The Mongols ruled.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
It hurts my English DNA to say this, but yes.
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on May 5, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Didn't make a difference to the flower of French nobility
at Agincourt
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Yeah, I always favor whitey blah blah blah.
Perhaps that’s because Western culture has produced the majority of the dominant militaries and military figures over the last several generations. And perhaps I think more about Western military figures because I’m Western myself! But whatever.
Anyway, I choose the English longbowman and I’m right. The longbow was the more decisive factor in English victories than was the horse archer in Mongol victories. It was mobility and discipline that won the battle for the Mongols.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
And there is no such thing as too much reverence for Western military history.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
West!
We’re the best!….

….around!

Nothin’s ever gonna keep us down!

Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
No.
I plan on reading it soon though.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I see your white guys and raise you with better ones.
No general can ever matter as much as these guys. Not even close.



I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Were we or were we not talking about military history?
And while I will not discount those fine men, uh, yeah, I’m pretty certain that George Washington, the Duke of Wellington, U.S. Grant, and Dwight D. Eisenhower mattered as much as them as all did volumes for the advance of free men.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Do not forget Cincinnatus
who did a lot for the people of southeastern Ohio.
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
I tire of military history. It's overrated.
And none of those you just named did anything close to the three above in terms of advancing humanity. There’s a very good case for Washington, but not in his military role.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe you meant
“Tyre of military history”
Are we talking Alexander or Crusades?
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Doesn't it suck
that good jokes like this will never get you laid?
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
You learn to live with it...
by obsessing more about military history
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Oh, I think you all are sure to get laid
by each other.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
We can call it "Battle of the Bulges"
Or “Sweattysburg” or “Guadalovecanal” or “Pricksburg” or “Menningrad” or “Porktown” or “Man Juan Hill” or, well, I’m sure you’ve got lots of other ideas.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
McCann't brought the fastball today
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd forgotten to include
“Dien Bien Spew”. Is it too late?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Spunker Hill is better, but you're getting it.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
There is the winner
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on May 5, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Sexington & Mangourd?
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The Battle of the Cowpenis
you have never seen a double envelopment like this
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Abbottabad, Pa-skeet-stan
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, it's so much easier than you're making it.
Pack-it, Stan.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Debbie…does the Battle of Dallas?
I’m not very good at this.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Menningrad is just outstanding.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
Also, there are women miltary historians. Like Carol Reardon.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I tire of America. It's overrated.
I tire of warmth from the Sun. It’s overrated.
I tire of water. It’s overrated.
I mean, that’s basically what you’re saying here.
Also, people who diss Washington’s generalship are truly overrated.
Also also, Steve Jobs did more humanity? Than who? Bill Gates? I mean, who cares about these computer nerds? As for Ford and, yes, Borlaug, they wouldn’t have the resources they used (Namely the entire American-Western way of life, industry, and economics) to advance humanity if it weren’t for the heroic leadership of Washington, the anti-heroic leadership of Wellington, and the unheroic leadership of Grant (Yes, I have read Keegan and, no, Keegan is not overrated).
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Correction: Washington’s leadership wasn’t really “heroic” in the classical sense. Not sure how I’d define it. Perhaps a combination of Grant and Wellington.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Holy shit. I need to re-read this and digest this properly before I comment further.
However, I wanted to rec this anyway. Unbelievable data.
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on May 4, 2011 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Dear potential recruit
Yes, it’s cold up here during the winter. But we won’t yank your scholly and give you a better chance of playing in the league.
kthxbye
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 4, 2011 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow. Thank you for sharing this work!
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on May 4, 2011 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we need UpUpDownDown
to further test his “style of play” hypothesis with help from people here. As mentioned by Vint, to say the B10 is all smash-mouth play is wrong. My thought on this is that it will further strengthen the “style of play” theory as it pushes the draft results from OSU, Iowa, and Wisky to the front and keeps the poor draft results from Purdue, jNW, etc from hurting their scores. A quick glance at the top of the rankings shows a lot of “pro-style” teams, especially the big three on top of USC, OSU, Iowa.
I think where he would need help is where I would also be weak: knowledge of “styles of play” for teams outside of the B10. Maybe a 1-to-5 scale for “pro style” play, with Iowa being a 5 and Michigan’s spread/3-3-5 as a 1.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 4, 2011 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
That can be tough...
Since most offenses are a bit of this and a bit of that. Oregon, Auburn and Texas Tech (at least under Mike Leach) all ran “spread” offenses, yet each has (had?) a distinct look.
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on May 5, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow
You are a disturbing and fascinating individual
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
Ahem.
You may want to ask this disturbed individual to come aboard as the resident statistician. He and SMA could do a great Martin & Lewis routine together.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought HEC was the resident statistician
Or at least the mathemagician
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
They could become quite the inside-outside, b-ball/football combo.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks, I deeply appreciate that.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Mr. Vint,
A quick list of the teams I know of with good-to-excellent longevity and not doing better than expected:
100% Rutgers (Schiano)
98% Tennessee (Fulmer)
93% Oregon State (Riley)
93% Maryland (Friedgen)
92% Florida St (Bowden)
43% Kansas St (Snyder) – obviously a hole in his tenure right in the middle of the data set, so this one is less valid
I think that the split of over or under 100% is actually right about 50/50 for the very good tenures, but it certainly appears the good side is stronger than the weak side (lots of scores over 120% but 1 or none under 80%)
I’m not sure what this does in relation to your theory, but I thought it worth researching.
It’s also interesting to note how many of those guys got pushed out in the last few years, which seems on the surface to strengthen the thought that maybe draft picks and winning drive longevity rather than vice versa.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
Several of these have holes in them.
You’ve already pointed out the problem with Snyder (and, considering what Prince did there, I’m not sure you can criticize his second go-round yet), Bowden (and to a lesser extent, Friedgen) were victims of the downside of longevity i.e. at some point age becomes a major factor in negative recruiting against you. And given the overall history of the program, any kid Mike Riley puts in the pros in exceeding expectations.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I wasn't saying it defined anything, just that it's food for thought
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
You could say the same thing about the offensive and defensive line coaches as well.
Development doesn’t just take place in a weight room.
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Agreed.
but the measurables are what gets the guy drafted. Chicken and the egg argument, really. The whole program deserves credit.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on May 5, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
One thing I'd like to see
is the reason for the dramatic difference in draftability between BCS and non-BCS programs. It’s a huge difference, pierced only by a very few select teams.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
The level of player may have something to do with it.
As was pointed out in the initial post, stars do matter, and most non-BCS programs are going to fill their roster with 2 and 3 star players. As a non-BCS program, they’re also at a financial disadvantage, so development is likely to be more difficult with less than stellar facilities. Plus, the good non-BCS assistants are probably more likely to move on to higher level programs, whether its for prestige or simply money.
That’s all just spit-balling, of course.
by The Mexican't on May 5, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
OK, this makes no sense
On the other hand, in the cauldron of the SEC and Big XII, where coaches are discarded constantly and with little more cause than one bad season, there is no continuity. The top programs still do fine in recruiting, due in no small part to the reasons espoused by Mr. Cook, but they still produce NFL players at or near the rate expected by the development ratio. The have-nots, with the same coach-killing fan bases and none of the recruiting cache, cycle through coaches at an ever-quickening rate, only ensuring more players leave via transfer. At places like Kansas State, Texas Tech, Kansas, and West Virginia, where meddling athletic directors dismiss coaches for any reason they can find, the results are underwhelming (even when programs like Tech and WVU win more than they should with the talent at their disposal).
The top three remaining teams in the conference, Texas, Oklahoma and Missouri, have all had their coaches for ten years. Kansas State has had three coaches since since 1989, and two of them have been Bill Snyder. If you don’t understand why Ron Prince was fired, go take a look. Mark Mangino was at Kansas for seven years. Mike Gundy has been at Oklahoma State for 6 years and before him, Les Miles walked away. On a similar note, Gene Chizik walked away from Iowa State, but before him, Dan McCarney was there for 11 years. Mike Leach was at Texas Tech for nine years and he certainly wasn’t run out because of a bad season. For most of the other schools, you’re looking at around 3-4 coaches over the last 20 years, not counting interims. So if there’s a problem with Big XII football, it’s not coming from rapid coach turnover. Most coaches seem to be getting at least four years out of their contracts.
by Gaknar on May 5, 2011 9:45 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
My guess is
this was in direct reference to the school living in UT’s shadow i.e. the game of musical chairs at College Station. You’re right, though, the Big X+X-X=X is relatively stable when compared to other leagues.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
But even A&M doesn't really fit the mold.
Yes, Sherman has been on the hot seat, but this is still his fourth year. Franchione got four years and before him, Slocum had 13.
This isn't the pros.
4 years is not continuity. Hell, in a redshirt system it’s not even a graduation cycle. Even the SEC doesn’t go through coaches faster than that.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Over the course of the study (2002-2008), here is the Big XII
Nebraska: Three coaches (and if you don’t think coaches are fired out of sheer fanbase stupidity in the Big XII, I give you Frank Solich and rest my case)
Colorado: Two coaches (with Barnett fired off consecutive division titles)
Kansas State: Three coaches (albeit with Snyder pulling a Grover Cleveland) and the ridiculous under-the-table buyout fiasco
Kansas: One or two depending on where you cut off 2002, but Mangino was under fire from the moment he got there. Dude won an Orange Bowl at FUCKING KANSAS and got canned because the AD is a sniveling moron.
Iowa State: Three coaches after the greatest coach in school history was forced out for not being good enough.
Mizzou: One coach, and I’ll be damned they’re pretty good at development (#22 BCS)
UT: Ditto Mizzou
OU: Ditto UT.
Oklahoma State: Two coaches, though as you point out Les Miles walked. Still near the bottom, though it probably isn’t due to stability, as Gundy isn’t under perpetual fear of getting fired.
Baylor: Three coaches
aTm: Three coaches (four if you count the interim guy) including the firing of the coach with a better winning percentage at the school than Bear Fucking Bryant
T Tech: One coach over that period. Lots of wins. Lots of drama from the good ole’ boys.
When Texas talked about how you’re all a bunch of uneducated rubes, I always thought they were just bragging. Turns out they’ve been lowballing it.
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
by Patrick Vint on May 5, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
This sounds dirtier than it should
Snyder pulling a Grover Cleveland
He sired a baseball team... An orchestra, if you count the bastards!
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on May 5, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mangino went out of his way to piss everyone off in Kansas
He acted like an ass to everyone and there were even some indications of spousal abuse. I don’t blame Perkins there, when the allegations of player abuse came down, Mangino had pretty much run out of friends in Lawrence.
Just another character issue with that guy. When Mangino was still working for Synder at KSU, just before he left for Oklahoma, the guy was going on recruiting trips and telling kids to sign with OU. He was not a good guy, which makes it hard to keep your job with the shit hits the fan.
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
I’m so glad I’m an educated rube rather than an uneducated rube like the SEC or a moron like the Big 12.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, here is a picture of R.C. Slocum being awesome:

Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
JImmy Buffett concert?
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on May 5, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
From the same event.
Not a fake picture.

Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
He's bending the wrong way but I can still see his titties
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
He's actually backing through it.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
He is demonstrating the proper field goal blocking technique
Der Hoelle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen
Somebody photoshop a goalie mask and stick on to this pic.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Strap on your skates, Gordie, you're going in . . . .

/I’m not very good at this.
by KilometersDavis on May 5, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
No, you're VERY good at this.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I will raise you one more MS Paint, then . . .
Summer of 2010: Rumors abound about JoePa’s health. Really, he is operating as an American spy in South Africa under the persona “Robert Green”.

by KilometersDavis on May 5, 2011 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Have you seen the average photoshop skills around BHGP?
You’re in the 99 percentile around here
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on May 5, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Stat geeks, people with photoshop skills
Have all of you talented people been just lurking around here?
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 5, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
What about the rest of us with no discernible skills?
What are we to do?
Whatever farm animal of war, Lana. Shut up!
I'm sticking with
the occasional stupid and / or sarcastic comment. It’s not unique, and there are many who are better, but it’s all I’ve got.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 5, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Reply to our own comments.
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
That made me laugh
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions
EZ access, baby.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Is that Spurrier?
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on May 5, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
If I didn't look at the face
I would’ve guessed Zook. The whole look is pure him
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on May 5, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Looks like he & Steve are preparing to implement
a little wrecking crew offense. Look out ladies!
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on May 5, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Kansas and Kansas State were specifically named a coach-killing fanbases
And as much as I hate to defend either one, it’s just not true. Both the Prince and Mangino firings had a lot of additional extenuating circumstances. Neither were chased out by fanbases angry at a single losing season.
Moreover, by only focusing on a six year stretch, you run into a sampling bias issue. If there’s a rash of changeover in that time frame, the conference looks less stable. That’s why I expanded out to 20 years. When you do that, the numbers don’t really change that much and you see that a lot of the turnover was due to long-term guys retiring.
I’ll give you Nebraska though. The firing of Solich was just stupidity on the part of an arrogant fanbase that couldn’t accept a 9 win season. They’re the Big Ten’s problem now though.
I’ll give you Nebraska though. The firing of Solich was just stupidity on the part of an arrogant fanbase that couldn’t accept a 9 win season. They’re the Big Ten’s problem now though.
But…but…but…Tommie Frazer! Best QB ever! And the blackshirts!
Just another drifter who broke the law.
by ReadingRambler on May 5, 2011 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions



















