On Redshirts, Attrition, and The Great Iowa Hawkeye Talent Drain
We received a question from the fine gentlemen at oversigning.com, who monitor recruiting practices in general and that Southern tactic of signing more players than you have spots in particular:
Just out of curiosity, I compared Iowa's list of signing commitments 2002 to 2010 (Rivals) to published rosters (scout.com) over the same period. Ferentz averages 22 players signed a year. He also seems to lose an average of 9 of those players prior to their senior year. So, on average, Iowa signs 22 a year, or 88 over 4 years. But Iowa on average loses 9 players per class, or 36 over 4 years. That's a net deficit of 33 GIAs UNDER the NCAA maximum. I double checked, because those numbers seem impossible. I checked at least two rosters for each "missing" player to make sure I was catching as many red shirts as possible. In other words, I may have missed an important detail in my count, and I am sure I probably missed a player or two.
But assuming I haven't missed something obvious - 33 GIAs? Let's assume I missed 10 kids somehow. That's still 23 missing GIAs - a full signing class.
Clearly, Iowa fills those GIAs somehow. Walk-ons? Junior college transfers? What am I missing?
The answer comes from a number of sources, but let's get the math right first.
Iowa redshirts the vast majority of incoming players (three out of every four, to be exact). Of the 109 players on the roster at the end of last season, 92 redshirted. More important to the question at hand, Iowa redshirted 85 of the 117 players they initially signed to a scholarship over the last five years. In other words, when you're compiling numbers on Iowa's roster, you're almost required to use five years; the 88 over four years is actually 110 over five.
There's also a small fallacy in the "loses 9 players per class" part of that math. It's not so much that Iowa loses less than 9 per class as much as the timing of that attrition. For instance, the 2006-2008 classes have lost 26 players, an average just below 9 per class. The youngest two classes, on the other hand, have lost a total of 8 players, or 4 per class. It's not to say that they won't eventually lose 9, but that they don't lose 9 players as soon as they hit campus as freshmen. The rate appears to be a loss of 2-3 players per class for their first three years on campus, at which point those who have survived generally stay until graduation (or leave early for the NFL).
Finally, an error comes from using Rivals as the list of choice. Iowa tends to give out a scholarship or two to specialists, long snappers, and fullbacks after Signing Day. Those offers that don't usually make the Rivals list. The five-year commitment lists from Rivals list 110 Iowa scholarship recipients; that number was actually 117.
This basically answers the primary question: If Ferentz hands out 117 scholarships, less attrition and four-year graduates (we'll get to this later), he has 82 on scholarship across five classes. This leaves only three spots to fill, spots which were presumably given to two walk-ons (Brett Greenwood, Paki O'Meara) and one JUCO transfer (Woody Orne). So there really isn't the problem the emailer thought he'd found. If you want to use the nine-year averages of the emailer, it's 24 per class, or 120 scholarships, less approximately 38 lost to attrition or four-year graduation (9 per class in the fifth-year senior, fourth-year senior, and junior classes, 6 sophomores, 3 freshmen, and 2 early graduates). That, again, is 82 players. The numbers are fine.
That's not to say there aren't problems. Because when you dig into the data and see just who is leaving the program early, the problems are both obvious and potentially significant.
From the five classes in the program at the end of this season (2006-2010), 34 scholarship players have left the program early. They are as follows:
2006 (7*): Bowman, Cleveland, Douglas, Nelson, D. Smith, J. Smith, Spievey
2007 (8): Bulaga, Coleman, Everson, Morrow, Moses, Pugh, Sash, Satterfield
2008 (11): Blackwell, Brinson, Cato, Griggs, Guillory, Hampton, Paine, Shane Prater, Robinson, Semmes, Staten
2009 (6): Brown, Harrell, Murphy, Ngoumou, Schiavone, Wegher
2010 (2): Ferguson, Gray
That list is innocuous enough; four players from the 2006 class left in the CBI purge, three guys in the 2007 class were involved in the Cedric Everson scandal, three guys left early for the pros, four guys didn't qualify, etc. There are reasons why these guys left, to be sure. But look at this list of players who didn't redshirt (players who eventually left the program in italics):
2006 (3): Bowman, Douglas, Edds
2007 (8): Ballard, Bulaga, Coleman, Everson, Morrow, Moses, Pugh, Satterfield
2008 (7): Cato, Guillory, Hampton, Herman, Lowe, Paine, Shaun Prater
2009 (3): Davis, Hyde, Wegher
2010 (8): Coker, Fiedorowicz, Hitchens, Kirksey, Lowery, Miller, Morris, Shumpert
It usually takes something special to shirk a redshirt at Iowa: Of these last five classes, less than one-quarter of incoming players see the field as freshmen. Those who play as freshmen are generally the most highly-touted athletes, as well: Of the thirteen Rivals four-star recruits in the Iowa Classes of 2006 through 2010, nine played as freshmen. Yet nearly half of the players who have left the program early in the last five years were non-redshirts, when redshirts remain in the program at a rate of 83%. If you take out last year's freshmen and sophomores (who, as we've previously discussed, are still a year or two from reaching full attrition), 13 of 18 players who did not redshirt have left the program early, with only one of those leaving for an early jump to the pros. On the other side of the coin, only two players from the classes of 2006 and 2007 -- A.J. Edds and Christian Ballard -- avoided a redshirt and left the program in good standing after four years. That's two in eleven. We're not just losing players of alarming quantity, we're losing guys with enormous potential quality, with talent so palpable that they can step onto the field almost immediately, and we're losing them as redshirt freshmen and sophomores, well before they've reached full capacity. For any program, that is unsustainable. For Iowa, where winning teams are built on the discipline and experience that only years in the program can provide, it is positively disastrous.
In 2009, Iowa walked a tightrope to nine consecutive wins. When we talked with Spencer Hall of EDSBS about the team's progress to that time, Spencer made a very astute observation: Iowa has a very thin top layer of talent, with a boatload of inexperienced tight ends and halfbacks and option quarterbacks to convert below it. Strip away that top layer and Iowa becomes beatable. One week later, Northwestern stripped away Ricky Stanzi, that top layer was sufficiently gone, and the winning streak came to a halt. The point is this: We have opponents, whether it be Fitzgerald or Tressel or Pelini, who are looking to strip away that layer and feast on the soft center of Iowa football. We can't afford to be chipping away at it ourselves.
* -- I didn't include DJK, though he was technically kicked off the team before the bowl game, because he played in the final regular season game as a fifth-year senior. For the purposes of counting scholarships, he made it.
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Very alarming
Let’s hope that the last 2 years worth of guys to not redshirt stay with the program. I would hate to lose Coker, the Polish Hat and Morris to another drug scandal, baby momma or playing time issue.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
Did Fedorizicizweiz play special teams or something?
I don’t recall him ever playing TE (although I didn’t look for it every single play), and I was hoping that they had used a redshirt.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Yes, he did.
He also played some goalline. And he saw the field at TE a few times, too.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
If you are worried about him wasting a year.
My guess is that he has such an obvious NFL-build that he consulted the coaching staff and let them know that he fully intends on playing in the NFL as soon as possible. Therefore, he would be unlikely to stay at Iowa for a fifth season no matter what which is the one that you are gaining by utilizing the redshirt.
I realize that it is far from a certainty that a kid with an “NFL-build” will be good enough to enter the draft within 3 or 4 years but this also gives him the ability to bank his redshirt year in the event of multiple seasons lost to injury.
I’m not saying you were worried, just making a point really.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - Teddy Roosevelt
Freshmen in general
are the most vulnerable population in college. It is the year in which you have the most attrition, by far. That is the general population I am talking about. Why? Because the transition from high school to college is pretty stark. There is an abundance of adjustment for a young person to make to succeed in college in their freshman year. It should be noted also that GPAs are the worst in the freshman year. Now, you add on to that the enormous responsibility of playing Big time Division I football as a starter. The playbook, the wear and tear. The raw pressure to do well. It’s probably too much for most kids. Then, as you point out, add in that these elite athletes have been coddled and cared for as high school players and the culture of the Iowa football program (no star treatment) and PRESTO it is a recipe for just what you have identified. Not to mention that many of these players are probably not exactly the highest academic achievers coming out of high school and might be coming from very different regions of the U.S. that are very culturally unlike Iowa City….
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
I had very similar thoughts on several points
Especially this one:
these elite athletes have been coddled and cared for as high school players
It’s a pretty standard rule that with the most talented athletes come some of the worst attitudes and work ethics. I am a little stunned to see the sheer number of guys that were non-redshirted that have left the program. It would be interesting to see this compared to other programs, but man that’s damning.
Long-view on this is that some of the worst attrition years seem to be the first few years where Ferentz was first able to truly recruit 4-5 star guys (started with 04 class of Moeaki, Dace, etc), and then things get better starting with the 08 class. Hopefully that means that he’s learned some lessons with the attitude problems of hype guys (Cyrus K?) and maybe recruited more carefully in that area. I guess we won’t know until a couple years down the road.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 8:48 AM CST up reply actions
Yup. This may be way off base, but it seems
that when we first started recruiting bigger names in the KF era, we naturally had to go after (basically) everyone elses’ leftovers.
Recruit: “Hmmm. Do I go to Michigan, or do I go to Iowa who only had a win or two a couple years ago?”
I think (which is always dangerous) that we got the CBI and Everson/Satterfield stuff because we were still building. You never know in advance that this stuff will go down. Do you not take a 4/5 star recruit because of the chance they’ll do something stupid? No. Innocent until proven guilty, or some such nonsense.
Bigger programs may (may) have overlooked some of these guys due to possible issues (and when you have a stable full of studs you can afford to overlook them).
That’s always been my take on that part of it.
The rest of the writeup is more interesting to me. It will be interesting to see how these guys with good GPAs, and from private schools, and whatnot turn out (not that those things mean anything per se, but hopefully you see what I’m trying to say).
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
I had heard somewhere
that we essentially got DJK because Tressel couldn’t bring on another “questionable” recruit. I can’t remember if it had to do with “character” or grades but the way I heard it Tressel gets a certain number of “free passes” for kids who are deemed “questionable”.
Anyhow, the story that I heard about DJK validates exactly what you are alluding to.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - Teddy Roosevelt
So did OSU take on big "free pass" on Tressel?
I also wonder if his “free pass” kids are the ones causing all the headaches right now? Nevermind, there’s nothing going on in Columbus except B1G and NCAA persecution of the innocent out of jealousy.
My thoughts exactly
I didn’t want to get into causes in the piece, because that really is just speculation, but (1) the pressures of playing Division I football, (2) the pressures of your first year in college, (3) the pressures of being away from home (I hadn’t looked at it until now, but only 3 of those 34 who have left the program — ARob, Wegher, and Murphy — are Iowa kids), and (4) the ‘recreational opportunities’ that Iowa City provides probably all play a factor
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
Wegher
Did we annex Dakota Dunes?
/pedantic’d
Please note that the internet does not, as of yet, have a sarcasm font.
OK, well, he played high school ball in Iowa.
Are we splitting hairs here? The man was threatening castration.
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
No, Walter, you're not wrong. You're just an asshole.
by One Night Stanzi on Mar 8, 2011 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
I've seen a lot of spinals, Dude, and this guy's a fake!
A fucking goldbricker!
by HawkeyeRecon on Mar 8, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
You want a toe?
I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don’t wanna know about it, believe me.
"You don't need thumbs...my best friend is my brother's dog and he doesn't have thumbs. He does fine."
WINNING
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
Penn State tried this method in recruiting last year.
We’re pretty impressed with the results.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Mar 8, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
Or, just don't let the players leave.
That’s working well too.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
I think Ferentz has a formula, like most major programs
his risk tolerance cannot be too low, otherwise we are Northwestern. So, he is probably spinning the big prize wheel on about 1/3 of the recruits. Meaning, he is hoping it works out but not banking on it.
I have noticed recently that Kirk is targeting out-of-state private school kids a bit more. Just speculation here, but private schools tend to have a more hands on approach academically and make more of an effort to prepare students for college. Also, because parents are paying for school, kids at private schools (very generally speaking) feel a different sort of responsibility - to the family, for example, which gets them thinking outside themselves. Again, that is a generalization but one I found anecdotally to have some merit in my years in academia.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Mar 8, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the part about the academics better preparing them for college.
The US school system is a joke, and does NOTHING to prepare kids to think for themselves or succeed in college (but that’s not what public school is for). Private school kids are definitely engaged on another level, whether they want to be or not.
As far as the “responsibility” thing, yeah, I’m calling bullshit. Yes, there are those who feel that, and they are the top students, with bright futures. They also tend to be church going, goody two-shoes.
MOST private school kids are rebelious toward their parents who have ignored them the majority of their childhood lives (in pursuit of money, which clearly is more important than their own children). Private school kids are the ones having unprotected sex with multiple partners on the pool table at the party. They are the ones buying blow with the cash they stole from their parents. They are the ones encouraging you to get into trouble with them (because they have no real consequences).
I’m not saying that any of our recruits are that way, but to assume that they’ll be any different from CBI just because of their private school upbringing may be a stretch.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't get into the worse stuff that public school kids get into, because that is well documented.
And when I said “MOST” I should have said “most that I’ve known” (though I don’t think my experiences are in any way unique). And yes, I’m generalizing, but I do mean “most”.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
It is clear from your points of views that SMA has more money in the bank than EHFD
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Not getting into which of you I agree with more
Just pointing out that you have very different points of view stemming from living on different sides of the tracks, so to speak.
Note: Personally, I’m a mutt, I grew up very poor but make very good money now, so I run into both sides and points of view regularly.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I grew in the military so I went to a different kind of school altogether in grade, middle and high school
my point was merely that children know when things are paid for and when things are free. And, yes, I am claiming that paying for an education has an effect on how people engage education.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
I should amend to say that public schools are not free but the perception is
there that they are…I guess. Taxes of course foot that bill.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
I don't disagree with that statement.
Just pointing to the generalization about the students. But then, I’ll admit I’ve never been to the coasts, so I don’t know how private schools are out there.
I just know what I’ve seen from personal experience in Iowa for the past two decades (between many private school friends- – I almost went to LaSalle in CR- – and then my cousin, who is practically my brother, started private school on scholly while I was in college, so I was often around their parties as the “responsible adult”). I guess I just always assumed that Iowa is like the coasts only a few years behind, so I figured anything I see in Iowa has got to be about the same everywhere else.
That may have been a false assumption, and I think SMA knows I wasn’t calling him a bullshitter. He’s (You’re) smart, and I wouldn’t challenge the premise (cause it’s a good one). Mostly it was a nit to pick.
Carry on.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
No offense taken...and yes my original point was that Kirk is going outside the state at private school kids....
I have noticed recently that Kirk is targeting out-of-state private school kids a bit more.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
I preferred the broad and bold statements you two had previously
to this “hug it out” stuff. Eyeheart hit a nerve on this one, and I found it fun.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 9, 2011 12:35 AM CST up reply actions
my wasn't bold at all....I couldn't have qualified it much more than I did
it was pretty benign really. It was broad though…most “statements” in a sports forum are…really.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
This.
I was providing the opposite argument to your one sentence and suddenly shit was splattering all over the walls (figuratively speaking of course).
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 9, 2011 8:25 AM CST up reply actions
A bit of a jump don't you think?
MOST private school kids are rebelious toward their parents who have ignored them the majority of their childhood lives (in pursuit of money, which clearly is more important than their own children). Private school kids are the ones having unprotected sex with multiple partners on the pool table at the party. They are the ones buying blow with the cash they stole from their parents. They are the ones encouraging you to get into trouble with them (because they have no real consequences).
"If you're easily offended, we thank you for stopping by but ask that you turn your browser elsewhere." -- BHGP Disclaimer
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Mar 8, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Every single person I knew who went to a private school ending up dying from a drug overdose.
Oh wait, I meant none of them died from an overdose, and most of them did quite well at college.
by HawkeyeRecon on Mar 8, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Duh, they can afford the better drugs
no black tar heroin or stomped-on caps for the private schoolers.
/facetious
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
I think it's also important to note the difference
between “private school kids” in general and “private school athletes”. My cousin went to Dowling not because his parents were rich, but because he was good at baseball and got a scholarship. He wasn’t Catholic and about flunked all of his religious courses, but they still paid him to play sports for them. His parents might have paid part of his tuition, but definitely not all of it. He only went there for a few years and grew up with a public school education. He wasn’t one of the rich kids that started out Kindergarten at a private school.
So, yes, private schools typically have better academics, but that doesn’t mean that the athletes go to school there for the education, nor that the educational standards always apply to athletes. Private schools can give scholarships, so it makes it a little more like a college situation than a typical high school one.
A few corrections
It seems to me that in most conversations when we apply tags and traits to entire segments of people that is frowned upon so allow me to point out a few things.
He wasn’t Catholic and about flunked all of his religious courses, but they still paid him to play sports for them.
This probably happens in some larger Catholic schools but I know for a fact that it is not nearly as common as what some people make it out to be. I work for a private school and I can guarantee you that we do not have a single child here on an “Athletic Scholarship” There are scholarships offered on a need based standard only.
He wasn’t one of the rich kids that started out Kindergarten at a private school.
Secondly, the idea that all private school kids come from rich families is simply not true. It is all about priorities. The school that I work for has many working class and low income families that have simply decided that they think it is important to send their children to a private school. Many of our students receive need based scholarships for families living in the poverty level. Most if not all families, if they made it a priority, could afford private education for their children.
Not an attack at you HawkAHeart, many people are saying the same things.. i just figured this was as good of a place as any to point out a few over used generalizations. I was raised in the public school system and now work for private, i feel that I have a decent feel of both sides of the equation.
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by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Mar 8, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
My kids are in a private Episcopal Day School. At this school, if you do something the school intensely dislikes, they will not hesitate to bounce you. And, if you’ve already committed to a college for athletics of some kind, they’ll contact your college and tell them you’ve been bounced, and why (to be fair, I believe this is standard under the college admission process, SMA?). In more than one instance, this has caused said college to withdraw their offer of admission. They’re still kids and do kid-like things, but there’s a shitload more adult eyes on them during the course of any given school day.
To the extent I have a point, I would suggest the Iowa coaches, in the event they have made some priority to pursue kids at private HS athletic powerhouses, are wise to do so. Hard to get kids out of the California schools of this type, but if inroads are made in the mid-Atlantic and possibly some in Florida, these are well worth their recruiting time and effort.
Seconded...
I send my three to a Catholic school. I am not Catholic. I’ve found the experience to be a positive one. The goal is to produce active, engaged and well- rounded young adults. I’ve found the teachers to be warm, friendly and very much not fucking around.
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Mar 8, 2011 12:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Meh. I disagree.
Maybe it’s because I went to that rare thing called a quality, integrated inner city school. It was good for those who wanted it to be. It was bad for those who wanted that. But I excelled, and I am a much more well-rounded individual than had I gone to a private school that didn’t value the diversity of culture within the school.
Eh. I dunno.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
That's what I thought going in
But I’ve been surprised by the diversity. The school has white and blue collar families. Parents hail(ed) from China, Vietnam, Ghana, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Canada, England and a few others I’ve forgotten.
What’s been great for me is that it really seems to mirror my small-town Iowa public school background.
Education is an opportunity, and how well you do depends on how much you can/are willing to invest in that opportunity. I suspect what I’m paying for is a building without bag searches and metal detectors.
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Mar 8, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
Private and Public schools both vary GREATLY
depending on area of the country and socioeconomic status of parents. I think to paint all private schools as exemplars is just as big a fallacy as to paint all public schools as animal houses.
I for one would greatly prefer to send my kids to public school for reasons of diversity as touched on by tyger, but may not be able to do so depending on where we live. Where I grew up in NE Iowa? Hell yes. Here in Los Angeles? Hell no.
I guess what I’m saying is it sounds like you’re at one of the better-run small private schools that have a sufficiently diverse population, which is not the norm.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
Also, my parents went to South Side
Chicago public schools in the 60s. Their stories filled me with fear and awe.
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Mar 8, 2011 2:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
So if your kid is great at a sport
and has a chance to get a full ride athletic scholarship at a good school playing that sport, and they take that opprotunity, they get expelled?
That’s messed up.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Expelled for law-breakin’, egregious cheating, making threats against others inside school. The ones I’ve personally experienced had to do with cheating and making threats. Expelled in fall of sr year. Much like employment, you are there at the pleasure of the school, not a right.
Look, I’m not an apologist for these schools. I’m a product of McKinley JH and Washington SH in Cedar Rapids. Given the recruiting universe it seems prudent to spend some effort on private school students in selected cases.
I get it now
I read it wrong. I thought you were saying that accepting an athletic scholarship was grounds for expulsion. You really said that if they get expelled for some reason, they school will contact any college that has accepted that kid on scholarship and let hem know.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
This probably happens in some larger Catholic schools but I know for a fact that it is not nearly as common as what some people make it out to be
I think that this is extremely common at larger Catholic schools. I know that Dowling came to offer a scholarship to the best 2 players from my grade at my high school after they proved themselves good football players after freshman year of high school. Both were not the greatest academically but that didn’t matter when it came to winning. Private schools do have higher academic standards and I’m not saying that all are doing this, but it does seem to be fairly common for larger private schools.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Mar 8, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
I will take your word for it
I just know that with the budget at a small Catholic school, like the one i work for the idea of offering an Athletic Scholarship would cause some serious laughter.
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by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Mar 8, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
There's a reason why the large Catholic schools in Iowa
are exceptional at athletics almost every year while maintaining a smaller student population than every other perennial powerhouse. The percentage of these students compared to the general student body is small and the percentage of private schools that would offer these scholarships is also small. Knowing that, the vast majority of students that go to private schools are not there specifically for athletics and simply want a quality education.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Mar 8, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Just remember folks
the plural of “anecdote” is NOT “data”. One should not make generalized statements of cause-and-effect from what is an extremely small data set.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
by HoyaGoon on Mar 8, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Did you look below that post.
And when I said "MOST" I should have said "most that I’ve known" (though I don’t think my experiences are in any way unique). And yes, I’m generalizing, but I do mean "most".
And no, it’s not a jump to say at least 80% of the private school kids I’ve known were into some shit that always made me blush. The orgy on the pool table… I was at that all-catholic-school-kid party.
Many private school kids are great people, and those are the ones who succeed.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
Search that guy's glove box, he's leaping like DJK.
I think Ferentz is nurturing enough to his players it doesn’t matter if they come from Beverly Hills or Compton…er, Urbandale or Council Bluffs.
"You don't need thumbs...my best friend is my brother's dog and he doesn't have thumbs. He does fine."
Go back up and re-read the thread.
I think you’ll see where you went wrong.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 9, 2011 8:26 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I started out tongue in cheek
then found myself sincerely praising Ferentz, became uncomfortable, and tried to turn sarcastic. Not sure what that spit out, exactly, but probably not what I intended. Anywho…I like Ferentz. He is good.
"You don't need thumbs...my best friend is my brother's dog and he doesn't have thumbs. He does fine."
If Private Schools led to failure
do you really think the rich folks would send their kids there? You can find drug problems everywhere. I went to Davenport public schools and was friends with a bunch of poor burn outs and had plenty of conversations with the popular kids about their weekend drug escapades.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Private schools lead to networking...
…which is infinitely more important than education.
(To keep it neutral) Look at many of our presidents and congresspeople.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
And yes, I'm aware that generalizations are dangerous and stupid
but this is the internet, and I was being inflamatory for the sake of conversation.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 8, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
Not more important...
…but equally as important.
And people are assuming the falacy that doing drugs means you’re unsuccessful. Ask Wall Street (especially in the 80s, but things haven’t changed THAT much), DJK, and many politicians (as noted above).
Just sayin.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 9, 2011 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
This thread did kind of turn into Pretty In Pink.
Which is a shame because the piece that Pat wrote is excellent (research journalism the likes of which we rarely see anymore from the usual sources).
Well done Pat.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Mar 9, 2011 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
isn't the commonly assumed ratio
1/3 will underperform, 1/3 will perform, and 1/3 will outperform what you think they’ll be coming into college?
I would guess that...not everyone can start either.
it’s a numbers game any way you look at it.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
The real question
is how those numbers compare to other BCS programs. We’ll probably never really know since the guys at oversigning.com seem to need some help with both their data source and mathmatical model. Plus, who is going to go through the lists and say “he was greath”, “he stunk” etc.
Anyway, assuming CBI and the assault were anamolies, we should see improvment on this front going forward. AIRBHG we’re just going to have to live with……
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
I didn't think the question would result in a write-up.
This is a really well-researched, polished response. Thank you!
Ann Arbor is a trollop.
4 running backs from 2008 are gone. Holy jeebus.
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Mar 8, 2011 9:36 AM CST reply actions
Wrong deity there, sir.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I know - it's easy to get caught up in the humor of it all, but when you see it listed like that.
It effing hurts. I’m gonna shut up now for fear of further taunting AIRBHG.
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Mar 8, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
Don't forget Pugh from 2007
AIRBHG is a real bastard. I remember hearing really good things about Pugh, and he looked decent in the MSU game. But he got caught up in the Everson/Satterfield incident – all the while not doing anything wrong – and left school after that semester.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
He scored the game-winning TD in one of my favorite games from 2007.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I've blocked out most games from 2007
I think it’s for the best when my only remaining memory of that year was losing to fucking Western Michigan on Senior Day and being the only year since 2001 to NOT make a bowl game. Fuck that.
What percentage of High School ball players get scholarships?
I suspect it is very small. I would argue the chances are very good that any kid from an Iowa high school getting offered a Hawkeye scholarship is likely the best play on that team and probably in that conference. Every kid who is good enough to get a D1 scholarship would likely fall into the class apart from the average high schoolers; yet relatively few come to the college ranks expecting to be coddled. It seems to me that Iowa’s biggest problem is that its Iowa. We don’t home grow enough quality athletes on average to fill our roster unlike many of the southern states. So we end up bringing 18 year olds from different parts of the country (different geographically, climatically, ethnically and in terms of population density). The bigger the difference for these 18 year olds, the harder it is to adjust.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
When you see the facilities and programs in the South, it's not hard to realize why they have so many good football players.
The high school football stadium in the town I live in is bigger than a midwestern NAIA or D-3 college stadium, by a long shot, and the team has 13 coaches. The sell season tickets (reserved seats) and the weight lifting facilities are amazing. And they start playing tackle football down here in Kindergarten or some other ridiculously young age. Every kid in elementary school is a BIG fan of their favorite team, and they understand the history that the schools have. You can’t walk into a 2nd grade class here without someone asking you within the first minute if you are an Alabama fan or an Auburn fan. You give the kids a piece of paper and tell them to draw something, and half of them will go straight for the markers that are the color of their favorite team and write their name followed by a big A or an AU symbol. (I know these things for a fact. I just completed a 10-week after school program for 2nd-4th graders.)
Football is in the blood down here at a very young age, and it’s no surprise they grow so many stellar athletes. It’s just not even the same kind of concept as what I grew up with.
Which would be fine
if the state weren’t sporting a 62% high school graduation rate. There are more important things, ya know.
Iowa’s is 93% overall (highest in the country!!) but only 57% for black students, which sucks.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
Stats may lie there, but still that's a little alarming.
Seriously, there may be a problem there of small sample size (VERY small, ~1% of population or smaller maybe) and a strong selection bias (the vast majority of black students are in either Dubuque, Quad Cities, or Des Moines, with larger schools usually having worse grad rates in general)
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
A number of Iowa communities have openned their arms to Chicago transplants
as such many kids with very poor academic grounding find themselves in Iowa schools where students are expected to actually pass in order to pass. The number seem to continue to grow in part because the waiting list for public assistance housing is much shorter in Iowa than Chicago. The problem is compound as many transplants chose not to fully integrate into the Iowa community and engage in a back and forth migration every weekend often resulting in kids missing class on Fridays and Mondays. Because of this, schools like Iowa City West High have difficult meeting the NCLB standards despite graduating 15+ National Merit Finalists each year and scoring very high nationally on average AP exam scores and student AP participation rates.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
West has problems?
After some of the rhetoric surrounding the redistricting plans I would have thought that West was a posh suburban school with no flaws and City had metal detectors and gangs slinging drugs openly in the hallways.
/hyperbole’d
And I did some volunteer work at both schools last year, and really didn’t see much of a difference in student body composition or facilities in my completely non-scientific observations of the two schools.
we are not talking Fort Apache in the Bronx
but there is a seamy underbelly at West High.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
Skill positions
Forgive me if I missed this being discussed here, but I would think that key factors in this situation are that a) skill position players are WAY more likely to not redshirt, b) Iowa tends to have to bring in skill position guys from farther away, and c) guys from farther away tend to have higher attrition rates.
Look at that list of players. Ballard & Bulaga are the only linemen. You have a handful of LBs, and then a bunch of skill players. Then the issue becomes cyclical, as you lose skill position guys then you need the next bunch to contribute as true freshmen.
Excellent points
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
Creates another problem too
We are constantly bringing in guys to replace the RBs we always lose, thus bringing in fewer at other positions so when we lose a few to attrition and injury, like LB this year, we are suddenly looking at a very thin depth chart. Also, some of the RB attrition is self-feeding, we constantly need to bring in 3-4 guys per class at the position who then see a logjam in front of them/in their same class and transfer out. Brinson comes to mind on that one, I’m sure he looked at the depth in front of him in the same class (Hampton, Wegher, ARob) last spring and decided that fact was enough to give in to his homesickness.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
It almost sounds like you are blaming the RB situation
on some hateful supernatural force beyond the control of mere mortals. What could that be.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
I am curious regarding the number of red shirtless freshman
who actually saw time in the offense or defense two-deep rather than just contributing on special teams. This is not to minimize their contribution or worth, just curious. It seems to me that playing true freshmen in the offense or defense is more of a recent phenomena under Ferentz while there have always been a few true frosh seeing time on special teams
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
"red shirtless freshman"
You talkin’ about Reiff when he was a freshman?
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Mar 8, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
Red and shirtless
That’s me from May through September.
Hey-OHH!
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Mar 8, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Don't forget...
Lil Ferentz! Red pantless too.
by RH's Bookie on Mar 8, 2011 4:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
"Of the 109 players on the roster at the end of last season, 92 redshirted."
Jesus, no wonder we looked tired in the fourth quarter.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
Only have 27 payers on the active roster will do that
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Mar 8, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
We'll just go both ways then

I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Mar 8, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Not
that there’s anything wrong with that
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Mar 8, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
Well a lot of these kids did go both ways in high school
Which is odd since most wait for college to do that.



















