Idiot's Guide To College Wrestling: Tournament Scoring
With the Big Ten Tournament under two weeks away and the NCAA Tournament less than a month away, tournament season is certainly upon us in the wrestling world, which means now is probably a good time to bone up on scoring in tournaments. This guide is based on the scoring principles for the Big Ten Tournament, but I think they use the same set-up for the NCAA Tournament; someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
You can score points for your team in a tournament in three ways:
PLACEMENT POINTS
1st place: 16 points
2nd place: 12 points
3rd place: 10 points
4th place: 9 points
5th place: 7 points
6th place: 6 points
7th place: 4 points
8th place: 3 points
This is pretty self-explanatory -- you get points based on where you finish. Tournament scores tend to include the minimum number of points that have already been obtained at the time the score is listed. For instance, if a wrestler has advanced to the finals, his team has already been awarded 12 points in their team score because even if he loses the championship match, he would still finish second and get the 12 points. The winning wrestler is simply given the additional points after winning (in this case, 4 more points to the overall team score).
ADVANCEMENT POINTS
Each advancement in championship bracket: 1 point
Each advancement in consolation bracket: 0.5 point
Bye followed by win in championship bracket: 1 point
Bye followed by win in consolation bracket: 0.5 point
This is also pretty self-explanatory -- win a match in the championship half of the bracket, get a point. Win a match in the consolation half of the bracket, get half a point. If you receive a bye, you do not automatically get a point (or half-point) for that "match" -- you must win your following match.
BONUS POINTS
Each fall, forfeit, default, disqualification: 2 points
Each tech fall (w/ near fall points): 1.5 points
Each tech fall (w/o near fall points): 1 point
Each major decision: 1 point
To better grasp some of these scoring concepts, let's take a look at the Big Ten Tournament bracket from last year and how the Iowa guys did.
125: Matt McDonough finished 2nd, with three wins and one loss, and had a fall and two major decisions among his wins. He accrued 19 team points. He got 12 points for placing 2nd. He got 3 advancement points for advancing through three rounds in the championship bracket. He got 2 bonus points for picking up a fall. He got 2 more bonus points for picking up two major decisions. So, in total: 19 points.
133: Dan Dennis finished 2nd, with two wins and one loss (and one bye). He racked up 15 team points. He got 12 points for placing 2nd. He got 3 advancement points for advancing through three rounds in the championship bracket. He got no bonus points because all his wins were of the decision variety. So, in total: 15 points.
141: Montell Marion finished 3rd, with four wins and one loss. He racked up 13.5 team points. He got 10 points for placing 3rd. He got 2.5 advancement points: two points for advancing through two rounds in the championship bracket and 0.5 points for advancing through another round in the consolation bracket. He also got one bonus point for picking up a major decision win. So, in total: 13.5 points.
149: Brent Metcalf finished 2nd, with two wins and one loss (and one bye). He racked up 18 team points. He got 12 points for placing 2nd. He got 3 advancement points for advancing through three rounds in the championship bracket. He got 2 bonus points for picking up a fall. He got 1 more bonus point for adding a major decision. So, in total: 18 points.
157: Jake Kerr finished 4th, with two wins, two losses, and a bye. He racked up 11.5 team points. He got 9 points for placing 4th. He got 2.5 advancement points: 2 points for advancing through two rounds in the championship bracket and 0.5 points for advancing through another round in the consolation bracket. He didn't add any bonus points. So, in total: 11.5 points.
165: Ryan Morningstar finished 4th, with three wins and two losses. He racked up 12.5 team points. He got 9 points for placing 4th. He got 2.5 advancement points: 2 points for advancing through two rounds in the championship bracket and 0.5 points for advancing through another round in the consolation bracket. He also added 1 bonus point for a major decision win. So, in total: 12.5 points.
174: Jay Borschel finished 1st, with four wins. He racked up 21 team points. He got 16 points for placing 1st. He got 3 advancement points for advancing through three rounds in the championship bracket. He got 2 bonus points for picking up a fall. So, in total: 21 points.
184: Phil Keddy finished 2nd, with two wins, one loss, and one bye. He racked up 16 team points. He got 12 points for placing 2nd. He got 3 advancement points for advancing through three rounds in the championship bracket. He got 1 bonus point for notching a major decision along the way. So, in total: 16 points.
197: Chad Beatty finished 6th, with one win and three losses. He racked up 8 team points. He got 6 points for placing 6th. He got 2 advancement points for advancing through two rounds in the championship bracket. He got no bonus points. So, in total: 8 points.
HWT: Dan Erekson finished 1st, with four wins. He racked up 22 team points. He got 16 points for placing 1st. He got 3 advancement points for advancing through all three rounds in the championship bracket. He got 2 bonus points for picking up a fall. He got an additional bonus point for getting a major decision. So, in total: 22 points.
Add all those points together and you get 156.5 team points, which was Iowa's final tally last year. As you can see, the big points are in placement, but every point is valuable. In a close race, it might come down to bonus points, in which case you want guys out there running up scores to get major decisions or sticking guys to get pins.
And what's this about consolation brackets? As we've talked about constantly, performance in the consolation bracket can be vital to winning a team championship. (It certainly was for Iowa in 2009.) Let's take a look at the 125-lb. consolation bracket at the 2010 Big Ten Tournament.
Under "Session 1" you see the guys who lost their pig-tail matches. Pig-tail matches are so-called because they're the "extra" matches you get when you try to squeeze 11 wrestlers (or more, come NCAA Tournament time) into a traditional bracket set-up. At the Big Ten Tournament, this means that five wrestlers get first-round byes and the other three wind up wrestling an additional match against the three worst qualifying wrestlers at that weight. I've never been able to determine a rhyme or reason to which wrestlers get byes and which don't; it's not as cut-and-dried as saying "the top five seeds always get first round byes" -- because that doesn't always happen. The advantage to wrestling in a pig-tail match is that it gives you an additional opportunity to get bonus points; the disadvantage is that it also means another chance for you to lose. So at this year's tournament, Iowa wants Matt McDonough to be wrestling in a pig-tail match; we probably don't want Ethen Lofthouse to be wrestling in one (I would have said Mark Ballweg, but he may have to wrestle in one no matter what).
There is some rhyme or reason to who gets placed where in the consolation brackets. In general, the guys who are in the top half of the championship bracket slot into the lower half of the consolation bracket and the guys who are in the bottom half of the championship bracket slot into the top half of the consolation bracket. If things go according to form, this means the 6-seed wrestles the 7-seed and the 5-seed wrestles the 8-seed in the second consolation round (the first round sees the guys in the consolation bracket dealing with the losers of the pig-tail matches). In effect, these are the consolation quarterfinals. The losers of those matches face each other to determine 7th/8th place. The winners go on to face the losers of the semifinal matches in the championship bracket in what are the de facto consolation bracket semifinals. The losers of those consolation bracket semis face each other to determine 5th/6th place, while the winners of the consolation semis face each other to determine 3rd/4th. Hopefully that's clear as mud.
In any event, that's how the Big Ten Tournament works. The NCAA Tournament works on largely the same principles, although there are a few more quirks involved since there are so many more wrestlers involved. Hopefully this is all clear as mud now. If you have questions, feel free to ask.
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Excellent job!!!
I wrestled for years and I never took the time to understand the scoring. This was succinct and I may end up trying to build my own brackets that automatically score it.
high school scoring is a lot different.
For example, In Nebraska, I think we got 2 pts for winning in the first round (of 16), 4 pts for winning in the quarters, 12 pts for winning in the semis (thus, getting to the finals), then 8 more points for winning a finals match. Skutt, a Catholic school that recently ended it’s 13-year run of dominance in our second largest class, routinely scored over 200 pts.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
speaking of...
anodd thing happened this past weekend. Going into the state tournament, the class B 119 lb bracket had 3 undefeated wrestlers and two 2-time defending state champions.
One wrestler (who won it) is Thomas Gillman. He’s ranked nationally as a junior and Iowa is interested in him. He would like to wrestler for them. I could see him coming in and taking over for McD at 133 after a redshirt year. Or hell, coming in at 125 in 2012-2013, with McD andRamos both up weights.
Anyway, Gillman is from Skutt. Central City just moved up from our 3rd largest class to our second (Class C to Class B). That wrestler was a two-time defending state champ at the smaller class. There was a third wrestler from bum fuck West NE who was also undefeated. Since there is no seeding in NE wrestling, Gillman beat both, one in the semis, one in the finals.
Weird.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
As an idiot
this guide should prove useful.
Watch Eagleheart
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
At the age of 31
I finally understand tournament scoring. You would have thought I might have learned this sometime during my 17 years of praticipating in the sport.
"The possibility of physical and mental collapse is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride!" HST
I second this
I have been participating in/watching wrestling for years and tournament scoring has always boggled my mind.
by Hank Thrasher on Feb 23, 2011 7:37 AM CST up reply actions
Seriously? What's so hard to get?
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Don't blame me.
Blame the BCS; I’m used to sports with explanations so stupid I don’t care to understand them.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 7:39 AM CST up reply actions
Hit up the "Wrestling 101" post.
We talked about NCAA qualification in the comments there.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Short summary
Each conference has a certain number of automatic qualifiers based on the following criteria:
Gold standard wrestlers need to meet all three of the following criteria:
.800 or better winning %
Top 20 RPI
Top 20 Coaches Ranking (weight specific ranking)
Apparently these can slide down to
.700 or better winning %
Top 30 RPI
Top 30 CR
to get the desired number of qualifiers
Silver standard wrestlers only need to meet 2 of the 3 criteria
This means that conferences loaded in one weight class (like the Big Ten 141 this year) will get a higher number of automatic qualifiers than other conferences. Once all the auto qualifier numbers are set, the NCAA (or coaches… still not sure on this issue) pick the at-large wrestlers for every weight to fill out the brackets.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
Very good writeup Ross
Tournament scoring always makes for some crazy scenarios. For example, a team with 2 guys in the championship has less potential points that a team with 4 guys in the consolation bracket still alive. I can imagine how confusing that would be for someone new to wrestling that tuned in for a tournament.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
That's true.
Although the thing I neglected to really point out is that you might have to wrestle a lot more to get to a placement spot in the consolation bracket. On one hand, that means more opportunities to get bonus points; on the other hand, it means more opportunities to get fatigued and to lose, too. Wrestling through the consos is HARD, which is one of the things that makes Iowa’s 09 title so impressive, I think.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Consolations
If you stay up top, you only have to win one match per session.
Once you get beat and drop down, you have to beat one guy who was already in the bottom bracket with you, plus another guy who dropped down from the top bracket. Two matches to win every session, for only half the advancement points. If you lose early, it’s a long slog to get all the way to the top eight.
by Cattlefeeder on Feb 23, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
Yep.
While every match is important to win, there a few that are a bit more important than others, I think — like your first match and the R12/R8 matches.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Tangentally speaking
Iowa City West High top seeded wrestler (and hopeful future Iowa recruit) Justin Koethe was disqualified in the state tournament for an illegal slam. In both cases, he went on to take 3rd place by cleaning up in consolations and in both cases the wrestlers who were reportedly “too injured” to continue wrestling him went on to complete in the rest of the tournament. I have watched Koethe wrestle and he when he gets to an opponents legs he has such a powerful lift that he sometimes launches guys. He will be a good one in college and is right in the mold of Iowa wrestling.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
What weight does he wrestle at?
"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me
by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 23, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
I want to say 52 or 60
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
If he could come in at 165 next year, that would be great
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know if there will be a big need at 65 next year
You will have DSJ, Nick Moore, Mike Kelly, and possible even Evans floating around there
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
Yeah, we don't need any more guys there.
Now 197 on the other hand…
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Koethe is just a Junior.
He has one more chance to DQ again next year.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
That scenario definitely illustrates how important it is to keep guys going.
And this is what worries me about a few of our guys. I have yet to see what I feel is a good string of matches from Ballweg at 149, Lofthouse the Younger and Gambrall. We need as many points as possible from these guys and I’m not even thinking of bonus points.
by Carfino'sWay on Feb 23, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Any points out of Ballweg will be gravy.
They’d be nice to have, but they’re not essential. On the other hand, we do need solid runs out of EL and Gambrall, and I share your skepticism there. They’ve been very inconsistent this year and that tends to get punished at the NCAA Tournament.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Although that's a strange expression, come to think of it.
Sometimes gravy really IS essential. Huh.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Balek Rasing thinks that gravy
is always essential
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
The three questionable guys are
a red shirt freshman and two sophomores starting for the first time.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
Iowa, PSU and Minny will easily be 1-2-3 for the next 2 years
All are extremely young and still competing for a NC
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
I think it’s safe to say Taylor’s in 3rd or 4th, no?
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I think Taylor will be at least 3rd
He will probably be at least a 2 time NC
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
Depends.
He’ll probably end up at 174.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't count out the Pokes just yet
Okie State has a pretty young, talented team as well. Only 1 senior in their starting lineup this year, I think.
Good job Ross.
Nice primer for everyone going into tournament season.
Only one question
was this intentional?
a good time to bone up on scoring in tournaments
"If you're easily offended, we thank you for stopping by but ask that you turn your browser elsewhere." -- BHGP Disclaimer
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Feb 23, 2011 10:40 AM CST reply actions
I have a dirty subconscious.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Holy Hell
I have a near-exact draft in my catch.com notes: similar grouping of points scoring, link to last year’s B1G bracket and even right down to the consi bracket from 125.
You’re so fast with good stuff. Loved the whole-team breakout of last year’s scoring; I hadn’t gone that far.
Alas, /resigns to heavy bhgp linking and structural copy…
@jtothemfp
"Cats been getting hookups on tatts since back in '01". - former buckeye Antonio Pittman
Heh.
Once again, Iowa pwns Penn State. ;-)
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
rassa frassa frass rass
@jtothemfp
"Cats been getting hookups on tatts since back in '01". - former buckeye Antonio Pittman
For PSU
When Taylor wins the championship and every match by fall (sorry no extra points for pinning opponents in the first 30 sec), he will have scored 27 points.
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
What we need to defend at Big Tens:
125: 1st
133: 1st or 2nd
141: 1st or 2nd
149: Anything
157: 2nd
165: 2nd or 3rd
174: 3rd or 4th
184: 2nd
197: 2nd
HWT: 3rd
PSU will likely crown 4 champs so we need to make good runs in the consolation brackets or at least get to the finals in most of our matches (actually doable with a couple of upsets as most of our guys will be seeded at least 3-4)
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
Molinaro, Taylor, Ruth... who are you considering the 4th likely champ for PSU?
Wade? He’s got a good shot, but HWT looks like one of the most wide open weights this year. I think Long might be more likely at 133, actually.
My guesses at PSU likely finishes:
125: 4th at best
133: anywhere from 1st to 4th
141: 4th or 5th
149: 1st
157: 1st
165: DNP
174: 1st
184: Outside top 4 (Wright is in a tailspin)
197: DNP
HWT: anywhere from 1st to 4th
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I was actually giving them either Wade or Long
since Long is wrestling really well right now and HWT is a crapshoot in the Big Ten (even though I’ve liked Rasing’s form the last couple weeks). If we can get our guys that are going to be seeded 3 (probably about 4 guys) to get to the finals where we will have 2nd locked up instead of wrestling for 3rd… I’m feeling pretty good about our chances.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah.
I have a quick and dirty look at Iowa’s possible finalists in WMBY this week. I’m planning a more extensive preview of the BTT after they release pre-seeds and/or a bracket next week. (Though it seems like last year they didn’t release a bracket until the day of the tournament.)
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I think Long's gonna win it.
Like you said, he’s not the same wrestler he was against Ramos. That match would actually be worth watching now.
As for Wade, HWT is, of course, a coin toss. A boring, slow coin toss.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Ramos is also better now.
Although maybe you’re assuming someone else (Graff?) will knock off Ramos, what with Long’s 0-5 career record against Iowa guys.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Yeah, Graff.
I don’t really think Long is as superior as he looked. I expect Graff to wrestle a lot better in the tourney.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
Mollinaro is no lock. the Minnesota kid probably would
have beaten him but for the lung injury TO.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
That's actually the "J will complain like a school girl about this TO while using the exact same tactic against Iowa a week later" TO
I dislike that man.
Anyway, while I know Molinaro is no lock, that was probably his worst performance of the entire year. I don’t know about “lung injury”, but he wasn’t in the best shape physically and probably mentally for that match. He said it was a wake up call and he did his usual against Wisconsin on Friday.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
I don't disagree about JRob but Molinaro was gassed in that match.
Some of it is on Molinaro for poor energy management during the match; these things can last for 420 seconds so you don’t want to run the tank dry in the first 300. Some of it goes to the Minney home crowd, they are a noisy bunch and the Minney wrestler sure fed off the energy.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
That's basically what I meant.
He was normal against Illinois, gassed against Minnesota, and normal again against Wisconsin.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 7:56 PM CST up reply actions
This explains why Cornell and Penn State are such a threat.
Tournament scoring takes a quantum leap once you get to the quarterfinals. Most weight classes start with 32 wrestlers, give or take a pigtail or two. So the first two rounds you bumble along, getting a measly one point for each win plus maybe an extra two for a fall if you’re McDonough. That’s why the team scores lollygag around in the 20s the first day of nationals.
However. The team race takes off in the quarterfinals. All of a sudden, you not only get one advancement point for winning, you get another six bonus points because you just clinched no worse than 6th place. You can gouge out both your eyes, get slammed blind to the mat over and over, and lose your next 3 matches. You’ll still finish 6th.
Semifinals? Same thing. One point for advancing and six more bonus points because you just clinched 2nd place. The team title is nearly always won on Day 2 (Friday) in the quarters and semis.
Now look at individual rankings:
Cornell: 12-6-X-2-14-5-3-6-1-X
Penn State: 10-3-7-3-3-X-2-17-X-6
Iowa: 1-7-2-X-7-14-14-11-6-10
Cornell’s got three guys seeded to make the semis. Penn State has four. Iowa has McDonough and (thank God) Marion. The thing about seeds is that they’re usually not far off. Iowa doesn’t have a superstellar history of guys always wrestling above their seeds. Iowa just usually comes into nationals with the seeds already in place to win. It’s why it’s been great to see a lot of the team work their way up from the high teens to the low teens over the course of the season. But it also means that this year, they’re going to have to find at least two guys who perform even above the level of improvement they’ve shown to date.
Cornell’s going to have five to seven guys on the podium (the ones that finish 1st through 8th and win you titles). Penn State’s also going to have five to seven. Right now, Iowa’s counting on McDonough (1), Marion (2), Uncle Luke (6), Ramos (7) and DSJ (7) just to get to five. They’re going to need at least two of the upper weights to make it up there as well. It could be the most tense national meet in years (and not disappointingly tense like 2009).
Yep.
Cornell and Penn State are major threats this year (as are Boise State, Oklahoma State, and Minnesota to a degree) because of all the studs they have. We need some of our guys to overachieve andsome of their guys to underachieve.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Damn you Ross
Posted almost the exact same reply 30 seconds faster
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
AA wins titles... That is for sure
The thing we have to hope for is a few upset of Cornell where they have a guy or two to not make AA because after their top 6 guys, the bottom falls out. Iowa then has to count on Janssen, Ethen Lofthouse, Gambrall or Rasing getting an upset or two and making it to AA status while our favored guys take care of business.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
Not disagreeing
but those individual rankings have Ramos at 7th and Long at 3rd. I think that is one place where Iowa has a good chance to exceed expectation. I don’t think Long is that much (or at all) better then Ramos.
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
To follow up on this...
I made a quick table featuring the end-of-seson Intermat rankings for every wrestler on the title contenders (Iowa, Penn State, Cornell, Oklahoma State, Minnesota, Boise State):
It’s not perfect because I’m not sure how close the final Intermat rankings will be to the actual NCAA Tourney seeds, but it will probably be pretty close. Anyway, if we treat those rankings as seeds and assume that everyone wrestles exactly to their seed and gets the appropriate amount of placement points you get the following:
1) Cornell — 53 pts
2) Penn St — 52 pts
3) Iowa — 42 pts
3) Boise St — 42 pts
5) Okie St — 40 pts
6) Minny — 25 pts
Again, that’s just placement points; it doesn’t factor in advancement points or bonus points at all. But a few things I noticed:
- Okie State is the only team to have a ranked wrestler at all ten weights. (Iowa is second-best with 9 ranked wrestlers.) Unfortunately for them, only five of them would earn placement points and two of them would earn few placement points (7th/8th place).
- Minnesota isn’t as much of a threat as I thought this year — they have three weights without a ranked wrestler, three more weights where a ranked wrestler isn’t projected to get placement points and two more ranked guys slated to get minimal placement points.
- Boise State is feast or famine. They have three guys ranked 2nd (and another guy ranked 6th), but everyone else is 16th or lower (or unranked). They probably don’t have quite enough firepower to win it all as a result.
- Penn State and Cornell are damn close. Each have six guys expected to earn placement points (plus two ranked guys not expected to earn placement pts and two guys not ranked at all). H2H matches at 149 and 174 could be critical in separating them, as well as bonus points.
- Iowa really needs the guys in the upper weights to step it up a notch. If three out of the four guys at 165, 174, 184, and HWT could even get up to 7th, that would give Iowa 12 additional placement points – enough to sneak by Cornell and Penn State (again, just looking purely at placement points).
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Great little table
with the way Rasing has been wrestling he very well could be an AA. Combine that with the fact that both Cornell and PSU have wrestlers ranked in the top 3 at 2 weights and there is reason for optimism for Iowa.
I stated over at BSD yesterday that Minny shouldn’t really be that big of a threat since when we faced them head-to-head, all of their victories were slim (implying they didn’t have the few studs that some teams have) and their overall quality isn’t as good as ours – this confirms what I was thinking.
Honestly, I see PSU and Cornell as the 2 clear favorites, but for Iowa and Okie St, all it will take is one or two guys placing 2 spots higher than seeded to really make a run at the title. This year is going to be extremely exciting no matter what.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
PSU and Cornell don’t have a ton of room for improvement from their current level. I don’t have much faith in either 125 guys making much noise and their unranked guys are unranked for a reason.
On the other hand, Iowa and Okie State each have a handful of guys in that 9-14 range who could add some points to their total if they could slip into the bottom range of the A-A ranks. That’s still probably asking quite a bit, but it’s a possibility. I agree, though, that it should be a very tense and exciting NCAA Tourney. I don’t think this one will be won by the end of the Friday sessions; I think the Saturday morning consos will be vital and it might even come down to some results in the finals.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I can't believe Wright's still ranked at 184.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
Rep counts for more than it often should in wrestling rankings, IMO.
Because he’s wrestled like dogshit for a while now.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Exactly
He was top 5 for a while and its hard for people to admit that a wrestler they held in such high regard has fallen as far as Wright has
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
Good anaylis but I am not sold on the current rankings
Cornell wrestled the tough part of their schedule early on and have been coasting on chum the past 6 weeks while the top schools don’t care much about how they perform in December or January as they build for the tough conference stretch and tournaments. I will not be surprised if a few of the highly ranked Cornell kids go down early. Just my opinion.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
YEAH!
What he said. What the hell is a Big Red anyway.
Pussies.
@jtothemfp
"Cats been getting hookups on tatts since back in '01". - former buckeye Antonio Pittman
I haven't seen him wrestle this year
but I have heard that Dake has had at least a couple pretty underwhelming performances (including a loss) this year. He certainly isn’t a lock for a repeat.
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
I watched his match against Molinaro in the Scuffle
A 1-0 victory for Dake. I still can’t believe Frank didn’t come out with the W in that one. He was in and standing on two big single legs, and Dake shook out of em both from one leg. It was very disappointing, but yeah, Dake didn’t look like a world beater.
Anybody seen Caldwell yet since he’s come back?
@jtothemfp
"Cats been getting hookups on tatts since back in '01". - former buckeye Antonio Pittman
Well, yeah.
With Caldwell hanging around and all.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
I guess what I should have
said is that I don’t know if he is even a lock for the finals.
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
One other thing.
And it plays into Iowa’s hands. PSU and Cornell match up at both 149 (Dake and Molinaro) and 174 (Ruth and Lewnes). Depending on how the final seedings shake out, they might knock each other out in the quarters or semis. Hopefully they each go 1-1. Iowa can let them beat each other up and take care of their own business.
Yeah, that's a good point.
We definitely want them to beat up on each other as much as possible — and it’s also important for Iowa guys to take care of business when/if we’re drawn against PSU/Cornell guys.
The other thing we should do is root for guys who are on teams that are no threat in the team race. For instance, Jon Reader should be our second favorite wrestler at 174 (and Henrich of Virginia should be our third) – we want him knocking off Ruth and/or Lewnes. Likewise, we want Fittery toppling people at 157. And, unfortunately, we really need to root for Caldwell at 149. We want him doing big things there, not Dake or Molinaro, especially since Iowa isn’t likely to get many (or any) points at 149.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Recipe for success in any sport
Succeed in your strengths, mitigate your opponent’s strengths, get a few breaks.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Do I really have to root for Caldwell?
Can’t I just whisper my hate for him instead of yelling about it every time I see his stupid face?
I think I’ve found the official motto for Iowa wrestling: "I could have scored more points." - ReadingRambler
Well, you don't have to LIKE him.
But we certainly want him to win more than the other options.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I was actually rooting for him in that match right up until he started prancing.
They should have given Metcalf another chance at him as punishment.
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 23, 2011 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
I just thought the same thing.
I don’t know if I can do it. Can I just not openly root against him? Will that work?
by Carfino'sWay on Feb 25, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Your rooting against him didn't seem to slow him down
the last time he wrestled at nationals. Might as well cheer as your heart desires
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
But that creates some of the easiest “Your Mom” jokes ever!
"Hi, I'm Bob Evil!"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 24, 2011 7:44 AM CST up reply actions
Anybody know what happened to Major Harm?
Thought this would be as good a place as any to ask. He was freshman wrestler (non-schollie I believe) in 00-01 whose real name was Major Harm. The only reason I know the guy is because he was my brother’s freshman roommate. And the only reason I care is because he was nice enough to score us 4 free 3rd-row seats for the Iowa-Iowa State dual at Carver that year, which was awesome. Have no clue if he got past freshman year, I’m assuming he didn’t make any match time for Iowa.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Feb 23, 2011 12:50 PM CST reply actions
There was a Major Ennen who graduated from Muscatine around '99 or '00
and wrestled at Iowa
"The challenge is the same every year. The battle is in-state. The battle is the Big 10 Conference. The battle is national. The battle is planet Earth. And if they find life out there, then the battle will be universal." -Tom Brands
That's the guy
Major Harm Ennen. His HawkeyeSports profile looks like he primarily got Midlands time, not much dual mat time.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Feb 23, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Since I don't recall him right off hand
I would guess that he didn’t crack the starting lineup in his time at Iowa. Lots of good wrestlers don’t
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 23, 2011 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
Big Ten Automatic Qualifying Spots are set
In short
125 – 5
133 – 8
141 – 6
149 – 8
157 – 6
165 – 5
174 – 8
184 – 6
197 – 6
HWT – 6
It looks like Iowa can safely get 9 guys to the dance with 149 the only question mark. The good news is that if Balweg can win one match at the B10 tourney, he should make the top 8.
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
Very nice
I can see Ballweg winning a match very easily, so if Ballweg does win a match Iowa and Okie St will probably be the only schools with 10 wrestlers qualified for Nationals.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Feb 24, 2011 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
Final coaches rankings
Below are the final coaches rankings followed by my estimate of their B10 seeding
125 – McDonough #2 should be #1 seed at B10’s
133 – Ramos #6 – 2nd or 3rd at B10’s
141 – Marion #2 and #2 at B10
149 – Balweg #32 – 9th at B10
157 – St. John #7 – #2 at B10
165 – Janssen #13 – 4th at B10
174 – Lofthouse #12 – 4th at B10
184 – Gambrall #11 – 3rd at B10
197 – Lofthouse #5 – #2 at B10
HWT – Rasing #10 – #2 at B10
with the strength of a grizzly, the reflexes of a puma, and the wisdom of a man.
so basically if Ballweg gets in, he's a 16 seed in his weight?
Am I understanding this correctly? Lots of reading/learning going on with all this wrestling stuff. BHGP: we’re smart, too!
by Swarley on Feb 24, 2011 12:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions



















