Iowa Wrestling Slips By Illinois And Dominates Iowa State
The quick takeaway is this: #1 Iowa beat #7 Illinois 20-13 on Friday and #23 Iowa State 26-9 on Sunday, extending their school-record unbeaten streak to 82 in a row. They also extended several other streaks, including Big Ten duals (36), home duals (37), away duals (48), and dual meet wins over Iowa State (8). But what else is there to take away from these performances? Read on.
In case you ever wondered why it's a good thing that the NCAA Wrestling Tournament is held in March and not December, Friday night's dual between Iowa and Illinois provided an excellent explanation: you want to have your guys peaking in March, not December, an approach that Iowa attempts to utilize each year. In past years, Iowa hasn't been punished for slightly sluggish starts due to the level of the competition; they've been so much better than the likes of Coe or Cornell or UNI that raw talent could easily carry the day. That wasn't true with the Illinois squad that came to Iowa City on Friday night; they're ranked 7th in the nation for a reason: they have a strong team with a handful of elite wrestlers. They have five wrestlers ranked in the top twenty of their respective weight class, including three within the top eight (and Jesse Delgado may be joining that group after his shocking upset of Matt McDonough; more on that in a bit). Iowa hasn't faced a team this strong this early in the season in quite a while.
They also have an assistant coach, former Iowa national champion Mark Perry, who is ideally suited to devise gameplans to stifle Iowa's strengths and frustrate Iowa's wrestlers (see: lots of shooting and clinging to one leg, or near-constant blocking off and avoiding a takedown). It's a defensive approach that flummoxed several Iowa wrestlers on the night (including St. John, Evans, Telford, and McDonough, to an extent), but one that they'll need to devise counter-attacks for in the weeks and months ahead, because future Iowa opponents will no doubt be studying these matches to find chinks in their armor. So, no, Iowa didn't look great by any means on Friday (with a few notable exceptions), but I think a meet like that is far more useful than watching Iowa dismember some hapless sacrificial lamb like Iowa Central.
The dual on Sunday against Iowa State was a less interesting and less revealing affair; while Illinois is a high-quality opponent with a quintet of wrestlers who could challenge for All-America honors (though they probably don't have the team-wide depth to mount a serious Big Ten or NCAA title push), Iowa State is a team still attempting to rebuild in the wake of Cael Sanderson's abrupt departure a few years ago. There's a vast gulf in quality between the two programs right now, as evidenced by the fact that Iowa started six wrestlers ranked within the top seven nationally, while Iowa State started six freshmen. (Iowa State's problem was only exacerbated by the fact that those freshmen started at the lower weights, where Iowa is strongest.) As fulfilling as it is to beat Iowa State (and, trust me, it never gets old), this win doesn't tell us a great deal about this Iowa team.
#1 IOWA (4-0) VS. #7 ILLINOIS (6-1)
149: #8 Terrazas DEC (8-4) M Ballweg (ILL 3-0)
157: #2 St. John DEC (10-5) Morse (TIE 3-3)
165: #15 Evans DEC (5-0) Stelter (Iowa 6-3)
174: #6 Lofthouse DEC (6-1) #3 Blanton (Iowa 9-3)
184: Dallago MAJ DEC (17-8) Fahler (Iowa 9-7)
197: #15 Gonzalez DEC (11-9) Lira (ILL 10-9)
HWT: #7 Telford DEC (2-0) Walker (Iowa 12-10)
125: #15 Delgado DEC (11-7 OT) #1 McDonough (ILL 13-12)
133: #2 Ramos MAJ DEC (13-5) #3 Futrell (Iowa 16-13)
141: #3 Marion MAJ DEC (11-2) Thomas (Iowa 20-13)
#1 IOWA (5-0) VS. #23 IOWA STATE (0-6)
125: #1 McDonough DEC (6-0) #10 Finch (Iowa 3-0)
133: #2 Ramos FALL (4:32) Terukina (Iowa 9-0)
141: #3 Marion MAJ DEC (17-5) Toettl (Iowa 13-0)
149: M Ballweg DEC (3-1 OT) Cozert (Iowa 16-0)
157: #2 St. John FALL (4:38) Moreno (Iowa 22-0)
165: #5 Sorenson DEC (4-3) #15 Evans (Iowa 22-3)
174: #10 Spangler DEC (8-5) #6 Lofthouse (Iowa 22-6)
184: #15 Beard DEC (10-9) Wagner (Iowa 22-9)
197: Lira DEC (10-6) Shafer (Iowa 23-9)
HWT: #7 Telford DEC (9-3) #19 Gibson (Iowa 26-9)
A few more thoughts on each weight this weekend.
125: #1 Matt McDonough 1-1; L to #15 Jesse Delgado (ILL), W to #10 Ryak Finch (ISU)
Oh my. McD's loss on Friday cast a pall over the dual meet win and raised a few concerns about him going forward. Overall, it was a solid win over a quality opponent, but McD's loss (as well as some slightly sluggish performance by a few other Iowa wrestlers) gave it a bittersweet taste (it reminded me, on a much lesser scale, of Iowa's Big Ten Tournament win in 2010, when Metcalf lost a shocker to Lance Palmer in the finals while Iowa won a Big Ten title). So how concerned should we be about McDonough? He definitely didn't look like the irrepressible ball of energy and action that we've been accustomed to seeing against Delgado on Friday; he looked slow and sloppy and after giving up a slick reversal to Delgado in the second period, he almost looked spent -- it was only by virtue of a slightly fortuitous stalling call that he was even able to take that match into overtime. It sounds like he also struggled to dominate Finch on Sunday.
On the other hand, outside of Lofthouse, no other Iowa wrestler fought a pair of opponents this weekend as strong as McDonough -- Delgado and Finch were both ranked wrestlers (with Delgado likely to jump into the top ten this week) who could contend for All-America honors in March. And slow starts aren't uncommon for McDonough: he had some struggles early on last season, before turning things on and turning into the dominant force we know and love. It may just be that he was ill or that this early in the season he's still trying to get comfortable with the weight cut. It may also be that wrestlers have scouted McDonough well and have devised strategies to slow him down. If his struggles persist, I'll be concerned, but for now I'm just going to chalk it up to an early season blip and trust that he'll be much better by Midlands -- and certainly by February and March, when things get cranked up.
133: #2 Tony Ramos 2-0; W to #3 B.J. Futrell (ILL), W to Shayden Terukina (ISU)
While McDonough raised a few worries with his performance this weekend, Ramos emphatically snuffed out concerns with two dominant performances, including a head-turning major decision win over longtime nemesis Futrell on Friday. That match was a significant win for Ramos on several levels: not only was it beating an elite guy at the weight, as well as a guy who had stymied in the past, but it was a big win at the precise moment when Iowa needed a big win. After McDonough's loss, the CHA crowd was stunned and the dual (and Iowa's 80-meet unbeaten streak) was in jeopardy: if Ramos lost to Futrell, Iowa would need at least a major decision from Marion to even salvage a draw in the daul. But Ramos rose to the challenge impressively, scoring an early takedown to get the crowd going and then refusing to let up for the ensuing seven minutes. He absolutely dominated Futrell, both on his feet (where he was able to score multiple takedowns) and on the mat (where he rode him well, which was not one of Tony's strengths a year ago). His match with Terukina contained the sole blemish on Ramos' weekend -- he gave up an early takedown and was nearly stuck for a pin -- but he rebounded from that near-miss to dominate Terukina with multiple takedowns and, eventually, a pin in the second period (something else that wasn't one of Ramos' strengths a year ago). We obviously hope that Tony isn't peaking too soon, but he looks outstanding so far, which is very exciting to see.
141: #3 Montell Marion 2-0; W to Daryl Thomas (ILL), W to Luke Goettl (ISU)
As expected, Marion wasn't seriously threatened in either match this weekend; he's simply much, much better than either Thomas or Goettl. Perhaps the only disappointment is that he was "only" able to secure major decisions in each win and that he couldn't get a technical fall or a pin in either one. For all his pre-season talk about "dominating" in his senior year, he's not quite there yet -- but "very good" is an okay place to be at, too.
149: Mark Ballweg 1-1; L to #8 Eric Terrazas (ILL), W to Joey Cozart (ISU)
So it's (again) come to this: Iowa sending a 141 lber out to wrestle up a weight at 149. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the host of guys already at 149 (most notably, Dylan Carew and Jake Ballweg). There's some talk that Michael Kelly is very close to getting down to 149 and that we might see him here before long, but this appears to be Mark Ballweg's weight for the time being. He had a frustrating performance against Terrazas (rarely shooting and looking tentative), but was able to bounce back and get an OT win over Cozart. This weight still looks like a pretty big hole in the lineup, unfortunately.
157: #2 Derek St. John 2-0; W to Jackson Morse (ILL), W to Michael Moreno (ISU)
St. John was one of the wrestlers most stymied by Illinois' defense-heavy approach in several matches on Friday, as Morse continually shot forward and grabbed one leg, only to hang on and do nothing else (which finally earned him a much-deserved stalling call in the third period; it's not often that you deserve a stalling call for shooting, but he absolutely did here). By the end of the third period, DSJ seemed to have it figured out and was able to score a few takedowns, but he should have been cutting him and going for more takedowns earlier in the match, as well as working on his footwork to avoid falling prey to those cheap half-shots that lead to time-consumign stalemates. Fortunately, it sounds like he was much better against Moreno.
165: #15 Mike Evans 1-1; W to Dan Stelter (ILL), L to #5 Andrew Sorenson (ISU)
Evans is what we thought he was: a very gifted wrestler on the mat (he was utterly abusing Stelter down there), but a somewhat shaky wrestler on his feet. His takedown attempts are a bit too blunt and straightforward; they're good enough against lesser competition, but he'll need to work on some sharper, less predictable moves if he wants to take down the guys at the top of this division (and Sorenson is among them). But overall, he's off to a pretty solid start as a redshirt freshman -- we just might need to temper some of the out-of-sight expectations for him for the time being. He's also got the unruliest mop of hair on an Iowa wrestler since Jay Borschel roamed the mat; we can only hope he grows a mustache was marvelous as JayBo's at some point.
174: #6 Ethen Lofthouse 1-1; W to #3 Jordan Blanton (ILL), L to #10 Chris Spangler (ISU)
An up and down weekend for Lofthouse: he scored a very impressive win over Blanton, but dropped a match to Spangler. There's no great shame in splitting with two quality wrestlers (both Blanton and Spangler will likely be contending for All-America honors come March), but it appears that consistency remains a bugaboo for Lofthouse. He looked very sharp against Blanton, scoring a few very solid takedowns and defending well against Blanton, but didn't seem as sharp against Spangler. Again, it's better to be inconsistent in December than March, so hopefully this is just part of the learning curve for Lofthouse. There's a decent chance that he'll get another crack at Spangler at Midlands at the end of the month.
184: Jeremy Fahler 0-1; L to Tony Dallago (ILL)
184: Vinnie Wagner 0-1; L to #15 Boaz Beard (ISU)
Split duty this weekend as we got to see both potential back-ups to Grant Gambrall while Gambrall eases his way back into competition (in the post-ISU presser, Brands indicated that everything was proceeding well on that front). Neither Fahler nor Wagner won, but both had performances with things to admire. Fahler displayed a nice sense of aggression in his match on Friday and picked up a few nice takedowns. On the downside, some sloppy defense and slow feet led to conceding a few way-too-easy takedowns and his ground game needs serious work: Dallago was able to turn him for back points on multiple occasions. He's raw, but promising; given a few more years of practice and experience, he should be squarely in the mix to replace Gambrall come 2013. I wasn't able to see Wagner's match, but it sounds like he acquitted himself very well against a top-15 guy and, frankly, should have had a chance to win the match in OT if not for some dodgy work from the timekeeper (who managed to bungle the riding time count). With Gambrall on the way back, neither Fahler nor Wagner figures to be a fixture in the line-up this year, but it's good to know that Iowa has pretty solid back-up options available.
197: Tomas Lira 1-1; L to #15 Mario Gonzalez (ILL), W to Cole Shafer (ISU)
We got precisely what we expected out of Lira at this weight: a slightly undersized wrestler who isn't among the most skilled guys at his weight, but who never quits and never wrestles with anything less than 100% effort. We can scarcely ask for much more, given the options here. He came very close to knocking off a top-15 wrestler (Gonzalez) on Friday and settled down to pick up a solid win over Shafer on Sunday after a wild, back-and-forth first period. With his tenacity, Lira will probably win a few matches this year that he "shouldn't" win on paper.
HWT: #7 Bobby Telford 2-0; W to Pat Walker (ILL), W to #19 Matt Gibson (ISU)
Okay, so the once-prophesied return of exciting heavyweight wrestling to Iowa may have been slightly premature; against bigger, more skilled (or at least more defensively sound) competition, Telford's matches resembled those of any number of other heavyweights that we've seen in recent years: slow and methodical. He controlled both matches, was never seriously in danger, and was the aggressor, but fast-paced, takedown-heavy wrestling this was not. So it goes. Like Evans, Telford is uncommonly good for a freshman on the mat, but a little patchy on his feet right now. Better shots will come with more experience and more practice, though. For now, he's off to a perfectly solid start.
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I'm still pissed about the 184 match
I don’t care if the isu guy had 1:12.9 riding time 1:12.9 – :13 is less than a minute. Math isn’t THAT fucking hard.
Video!!
Glad to get a chance to watch matches and interviews. Brands’ post-Illinois interview:
http://youtu.be/udBDCivp1jk
by theflagshopisoutofstock on Dec 5, 2011 10:46 AM CST reply actions
Awesome quote from Brands
Starting at 1:33 mark. Beware intensity:
“I know the adversary. I know Mark Perry is very, very, umm…he wants to shove it up our rear put it that way. And it’s a healthy thing.”
by theflagshopisoutofstock on Dec 5, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
Ten Minutes of Brands = Ten Minutes of Win
‘This is gonna help us going forward, if we help it help us.’
jtothetweet
Make sure this dead horse doesn't move while I go get my beatin' stick.
The situation with the clock has a very plausible explanation
but the fact that it essentially decided the match instead of allowing the wrestlers to decide it is inexcusable.
Since the riding time clock ticks up and the match clock ticks down, the difference in the fractions of a second are not shown on either clock… for example, in this case Beard had 1:12.2 of riding time, showing as 1:12. The match clock showed 12 seconds left which means that there was between 11.1 – 12.0 seconds left in the match since the match clock only changes on the exact second. These hundredths of a seconds aren’t shown at all so no one had anyway of knowing except for the timekeepers.
It’s very possible that had the dual been in IC, the refs might have been made aware of the dependency and the match would have ended complete differently – with Wagner more than likely losing by 2 due to letting Beard out and attempting a takedown. Just because this is the way the match probably would have ended if everyone would have had all of the information does not excuse the fact that everyone (ISU wrestlers, coaches and fans included) thought that the match was going to OT and an unseen point came out of nowhere to decide the match.
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
But the match clock didnt say 12.
It read 13.
by kodypuckett23 on Dec 5, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry, I messed up the explanation of the clock timing...
No matter what, I think we all agree that the time should have been explicitly stated to the wrestlers and coaches in order to have the outcome of the match be completely accurate instead of an ending like we got.
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Meh. Don't leave it to chance and it's not an issue.
There are a lot bigger officiating issues in wrestling to worry about than this one. Shit happens.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
This isn't really an issue like that.
If the time issue had been clearly understood, Wagner would have cut Beard and tried to get another takedown in the last 15 seconds or so. But based on what the scoreboard said essentially everyone in the arena thought it would go to OT if Wagner simply rode him out for the remainder of the period. (Which was a sensible approach, since it gives you a minute to get a takedown rather than just 15 seconds or so.)
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
This is not a judgement call type of situation with Potentially Dangerous
or Stalling. Hell, even determining when a wrestler has been turned enough to give up back points or when a takedown is awarded is a judgement call to a certain extent. Is the answer to these issues simply put the guy flat on his back or execute a perfect shot? Yes, that would eliminate the judgement portion but that is completely unrealistic to expect in every situation.
This is a timekeeping issue that should have been pointed out. Its a black and white issue where looking at the clocks that everyone looks at is misleading an affects the ending strategy of the match. Obviously someone knew that riding out Beard would not result in OT since that was the final call, so why isn’t there a procedure in place for a situation like this? Also, what are the other bigger officiating issues in wrestling that doesn’t have to do with judgement calls?
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
I liken this to something like instant replay
The technology is there, but is it necessary? Debatable. Like I said, if you don’t put yourself in that situation it’s not an issue.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
It would be great if we could always dominate every match and nothing every comes down to a close point.
That’s also not realistic.
How hard is it to:
(a) Make the clock that is available for everyone to see the official time in a match— not what some timekeeper says based on a clock no one else can see?
or
(b) Use a clock that accurately expresses tenths and hundredths of a second?
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Exactly
This is not an issue about the refs, this is an issue about not having the proper equipment or, if the proper equipment can’t be set up, a procedure in which the official timekeeper makes both coaches aware of the official time of the match and RT clock.
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, it's a matter of equipment and time involved
Just like instant replay IMO. I understand the very good arguments in favor of it, I’m just not that worked up if it doesn’t happen and costs a close match once in a while.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
I guess that's more of a difference in the roll of technology in sports
I am in favor of any implementation of that makes sports more accurate as long as it doesn’t slow down the game too much. In this case, I feel that the fix to this issue is extremely easy and there is no reason not to implement it. In the case of instant replay, is it perfect? No, but it is better than no instant replay and the limited number of challenges don’t slow down the game too much, so its an improvement in my opinion.
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think this is an issue that is comprable to instant repaly
where you are looking to correct a possible judgment error. The referees and wrestlers were lined up, ready to start OT. Riding time is a huge part of collelge wrestling, and has been since I can remember. Keeping time is not an optional part of wrestling that can be added. They, clearly, have the means to keep track of riding time to the tenth of a second. I am not angry that it wasn’t displayed on the scoreboard. But the officials, wrestlers, and coaches should have been made aware. It didn’t hurt us in terms of the overall outcome, but against Penn State or Oklahoma State, a mistake like that could very well cost that team the meet. And what if that happened in the NCAA tourney. You could very well cost a wrestler a national title, or even a team title if it is close.
What makes seem so much worse is that it is so easy to fix. I don’t think they need to get new score boards or anything. But if its close, let the coaches (and officials!) know the exact time.
Good point.
It’s not like instant replay at all, in that sense. They already keep the time, and it’s just a matter of making it more available to the coaches.
If one wanted to liken it to basketball, catnuts might say, “Well, it’s fine if no one but the timekeeper really knows if the shot clock will run out before the game clock. That’s debatable whether that matters.”
It’s obviously not. If I’m up by 1 and I know I’ll turn the ball over if I don’t shoot, I shoot. But if I know that I can hold on to get the win, I’ll do that. The timekeeper shouldn’t be the only one who knows what the situation really holds. That’s dumb.
meh
You make it hard to have a conversation with you.
Every time there’s a disagreeance you’re very quick to insult. I enjoy your input and viewpoint, but man you need to work on that anger.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 6, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
There are plenty of people that disapprove of instant replay
Usually in its prevalence, but also in its use entirely. Including many people in high-profile positions that I’m absolutely certain you’ve heard as talking heads on TV.
To say it’s not debatable is just plain wrong.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 6, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, I'm referring to judgment calls
There need to be much better procedures put in place and training on what is stalling or potentially dangerous. I’ll take 50 hours of ref education on that over 1 hour of having them look at the scorer’s clock.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Do refs need to be trained more in what constitutes stalling? Of course they do
but the fact is that it wouldn’t even take 1 hour of training of refs since this has nothing to do with the refs. This is about equipment and procedures that the scorers need to follow. The fact that the coaches made the 100% correct decision based off of the situation on the mat as they knew it and the match ended due to that misinformed decision is not acceptable in any level D1 sports or above. If the Hawks had lost a game while in range of a very long field goal to tie the game because the game clock was not correct, what would happen? What would be fan reaction? At least give us a chance to tie
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
That exact scenario happened with Texas-Nebraska a couple years ago
(bad official time clock at end of game). Shit has always happened, will continue to happen. It’s a very close call in a tough sport to officiate. Just can’t get that worked up if they mess it up.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
You know what they did in that scenario?
They fucking fixed it on the field.
Clock “ran out,” officials realized that was in error, put time back on, Texas got to attempt the kick. Nebraska whined about a B12 conspiracy against them, but whatever — it was the right call.
Guess what didn’t happen here.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
OK, how about the official NBA rule of 0.4 seconds or more required for a catch-and-shoot?
It gets nebulous near the end of close games in all sports with a clock, that’s the nature of trying to not let it come down to that. Again, I agree that it could be done, and in fact there might be a change in this going forward, but it’s a minor detail in the entirety of a 7-minute match.
And to slippery slope you, if we start to do every minor detail it can get crazy. Do we start reviewing the exact time that he turned the opponent to make sure the clock was correct at the start? Do we start doing that for all potential riding time changes? Starts to get messy.
I wish the result was different, and it’s frustrating that the problem exists. But hey, that’s football sports. (FYI, I truly believe that line, and yes I used it to get a rise)
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
the Catnuts doth protest too much, methinks
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 5, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
You're using that line incorrectly. I don't actually desire the thing I'm protesting too much.
And yes, maybe I made too much of a deal with it. But my initial comment was just that it didn’t matter to me and I ended up defending my opinion when asked to. Whatevs. Just a silly little internet discussion. We can all go back to other things now.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
Not sure if incorrect as you repeated stated nothing to get worked up about
and continued to bring new arguments.
Indeed, my friend, happy Monday.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 5, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
No, you're not understanding. Allow me to elaborate
The original line is “the lady doth protest too much, methinks”, inferring that the item she’s protesting so strongly is something she actually wants.
Like gay politicians or preachers being fervently anti-gay-rights, or your fat coworker constantly declaring how often they excercise and detest lazy people. The clamor a person creates means they’re covering up their own desires for said “hated” topic.
So yes, I may protest too much, but the line does not apply.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
So when you stated nothing to get worked up about but kept arguing...
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 5, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
I see what you're saying, but still, no.
It would refer to my wanting the rule changed despite my protests against it.
Your scenario would require me making “It’s not worth talking about” the crux of my argument and then continuing to argue. Neither did I make it the crux of my argument, nor did I get “worked up” (the exact thing I said too many times).
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
Ok. Gotcha.
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 5, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
I enjoy discussions like this
It’s fun to disagree with someone and state your side without being called names or other people taking the disagreement personal.
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
trCn is as skilled as any regarding a chivalrous Internet debate
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 5, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
I've had plenty of jerky moments.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
24/7 for me
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
by BentNotBroken on Dec 5, 2011 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Kettle.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
A garbageman
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
That is right
and I am about to take out the trash.
/jumps up to throw down
//trips over lab chair
///slams face into gel electrophoresis rig
////gets covered in highly mutagenic dye
/////weeps softly for unborn children
//////weeps somewhat louder at realization that no woman would agree to have said children
///////runs home throw shitty Lubbock streets screaming “Don’t Judge Me” to everyone I see through the quickly freezing buffer and tear slurry running down my face
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
by Lycurgus on Dec 5, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
yeah, i'll make it green
DRUNJIFORNICATION
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Dec 6, 2011 7:54 AM CST up reply actions
through not throw
Damn, I can’t keep from typo-ing
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
Agreed. And it's hard to have that kind of discussion on internet message boards.
Thanks for being a good sport in return. Now enough with the HJs we’re giving eachother, back to arguing.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
HJ's
I prefer ZJ’s
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
Zadick always makes his jobs stubbly and scratchy
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
I understand what you are saying
but the whole slippery slope argument doesn’t hold much water with me when it comes to wrestling. We don’t need to review the clock stopping and starting on every whistle in a match just like it isn’t reviewed in football on every whistle. The point is that when it comes down to fractions of a second towards the end of any sporting event, the clock becomes exponentially more important and, as such, gets reviewed.
I’m not saying that the time should have been reviewed; it’s the fact that no one knew what the time actually was in the first place.
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Rawr rawr rawr
blah blah blah
I WIN!!!
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
No, I talk loudest and last
therefore I win.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 5, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
I win because it is snowing in Lubbock
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
You have jumped to the top of my list of enemies
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
That is not the same at all.
You are not sticking with consistencies. The fact that you have to stretch and make imperfect analogies should tell you the strength of your position.
meh
If you're looking for perfect analogies for everything
you’re going to look for a very long time. There’s a ton of different sports with different rules, just trying to bring up similar ones for servicable analogies.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 6, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
Your guys' argument reminds of a fable
Once there was a pine martin and a baby muskrat. The two animals were best friends and had been for many months. One day they were playing near a stream when a great vulture came down from the sky and whispered something in the pine martin’s ear. The baby muskrat was desperate to learn this new secret of his friend and he begged and begged to be included in the game. Finally, the pine martin relented and told the baby muskrat what the vulture had first told him. The pine martin said, “the vulture just reminded me that I am a pine martin and muskrats are tasty”. The baby muskrat was ill at ease upon hearing this and, though he tried with all his might, his tiny legs were not strong enough to escape his friend’s hunger. Thus, the friendship ended in blood and, once the martin was done drinking the blood of the muskrat, the vulture had his fill.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
Why are fables always so macabre?
And you’re the vulture, aren’t you?
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Dec 6, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly,
there is no reason for the score keeper not to let the coaches and officials know that information. It changes completely how both wrestlers would wrestle those last 12 seconds.
Brands had to be restrained to keep from killing someone after that, called the ISU coaches for stalling before walking off the stage. We all thought he got ejected. Didn’t come back until half way through the next match.
Impressive match from Ramos
He looks a tad stronger this year. Really threw the saddle on Futrell a few times. That’s great to see.
Comedy is where the mind goes to tickle itself.
he looked really good
able to turn those shots from Furtrell consistently. Hopefully he can keep it going.
"40 MINUTES OF MEH!" - djwoody
by The Bacon Explosion on Dec 5, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
The offseason training at 133 instead of 125 looks to really have improved his strength
If he keeps wrestling like that, he should definitely be AA in March
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 5, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
It's early, but I agree - he should AA
It could be a high AA too. Hopefully his form continues.
Comedy is where the mind goes to tickle itself.
His esapability is what I worry about
He has struggled against longer opponents in the past and I am reserving judgement until I see him under a “Long Rider” (likely Cole Younger).
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
/Pun involving the words "Long Rider"
"He lowballed us and said: 'Take it or leave it. If you don't take our offer, you are rolling the dice.' I said: 'Consider them rolled.' " - Jim "Huge Brass Balls" Delaney
by ClaybornSmash on Dec 6, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
I thought I just used one?
I can’t even tell anymore.
Parsimony methods are the easiest ones to explain - Felsenstein
I thought so, too.
He was never fat or doughy last year, obviously, but he definitely looks a little fitter, a little more cut. Dunno. Just remembered thinking that when I watched the match.
meh
I thought he looked young...
He looks physically more mature than last year. He looks like Mike Mena.
I thought I heard a story about someone heckling Perry during the Illinois dual, though I don't remember the quote.
Something about one of the matches seeming familiar which got a good chuckle. I thought it was odd when I heard the story as I though Perry was coaching out in California. Now it all makes sense.
He was coaching at Cal Poly 'til this year.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"




![Unofficial mascot of ISU Hate Week 2011.
Beware of Geeks bearing jorts.
[I'm just gonna go ahead and bump this up and call it Hamsterdam for the night. Have at, kiddos. --AJ]](http://cdn1.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/214244/herkytrollface_small.jpg)















