IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW AGAIN: Kirk Ferentz, Michigan, and the Winter of Our Discontent
John Bacon's Three and Out: Rich Rodriguez and the Michigan Wolverines in the Crucible of College Football hit bookshelves yesterday. Bacon is a former Detroit News reporter and Bo Schembechler biographer who has now written three books on Michigan football. For obvious reasons, Three and Out focuses on Rodriguez's time at Michigan, but its early pages chronicle a series of events much closer to our hearts: The 2007 coaching search that led to Rodriguez's hiring, a search that for some time centered on our own Kirk Ferentz. While Iowa was coming off its worst season since 2000 and was only one game over .500 in the last three years, Ferentz made some sense for Michigan: He was originally hired at Iowa by Michigan president Mary Sue Coleman, he had the demeanor and MANBALL philosophy of Lloyd Carr and Bo Schembechler, and he was well-respected in the coaching community.
It's easy to forget those salad days, when we were green in judgment and gold in pants. It was a time when we were learning how to use FlightAware (which really helped a couple of years later when Lickliter was issued his walking papers) and writing Not Kirk Ferentz before we'd ever explored Twitter (I still say, without question, that Bellanca's post is the best thing ever written here). It wasn't just us, either; regional news was citing mGoBlog reports as legitimate sources. News was fluid. Rumors were facts. Things were weird.
Ferentz never accepted the Michigan job, obviously, though it has been common internet knowledge that it was likely offered. As happens with coaching searches, the behind-the-scenes discussions at Michigan regarding Ferentz didn't immediately see the light of day. Ferentz denied he had ever been offered the job, Michigan officially said it never offered the job and moved onto Greg Schiano, nothing to see here. Bacon's book blows the lid off that, but not in the way we thought. It turns out Ferentz wasn't offered the Michigan job after all. The person who vetoed his offer, though, is the last person we would have expected:
A year earlier, [Michigan AD Bill] Martin had decided Kirk Ferentz, whom [Mary Sue] Coleman had hired when she was Iowa's president, would be his top candidate. Shembechler respected Ferentz, and Carr would have supported him. Martin did not check with Coleman, however, and she did not tell him until after Carr stepped down that Ferentz would not be considered, perhaps because numerous Hawkeyes had serious off-field problems that fall. Whatever her reasons, the result was the same: Another solution had been eliminated.
It wasn't Schembechler or Carr deciding they didn't want to raid a fellow Big Ten school. It wasn't Sailboat Bill Martin deciding the program needed to change direction from its pro-style past. It was Coleman, who was largely considered the primary reason why Ferentz was under consideration in the first place, that nixed Ferentz's Michigan offer.
The question, from both Bacon and us, is why? Bacon suggests it may be due to Iowa's off-field disciplinary record, and it's a fair point; 2006 and 2007 were especially bad years off the field at Iowa. Coleman had always been in the "a coach can't babysit every player" camp when at Iowa, though. The more likely scenario, at least to us, has more to do with Coleman's status at Iowa. As a student at the University during her term, I have to say that Mary Sue Coleman was beloved throughout the UI community. She engineered her exit from Iowa City for minimum impact, as well, and spun it so that Iowa didn't feel slighted by her departure. Losing a university president is one thing, though, and Coleman knew that losing a head coach who had become a cult hero throughout the state was quite another. Poaching Kirk Ferentz from Iowa would have opened the wounds she had worked so hard to prevent in the first place.
Coleman's decision led to Rodriguez, which led to the meltdown, which led to Josh Groban and Denard Robinson and Henri the otter of ennui, to Shonn Greene and Ricky Stanzi and the 2010 Iowa November meltdown. It changed Big Ten football, and fans of both teams would split on whether it was for the better or worse. Regardless of the motive, we now have our answer. We know it was you, Mary Sue.
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That Bellanca post you referenced was really nice to re-read.
Its funny how it was assumed by everyone that JoePa would be out for sure after that season, then came back and went to the Rose Bowl next year.
"Mary Sue Coleman was beloved throughout the UI community"
Have to disagree with you on that one. David Skorton was beloved. Sandy Boyd was beloved. Mary Sue made the frats dry and started the slow death of Iowa tailgating. She was a decent university president, but I don’t think anyone ever questioned that her ambition stretched beyond Iowa and that she was making moves at Iowa to position herself for another job.
I’m surprised she would say Ferentz was off the table, but to me it make more sense that she would do it to keep her own life easier. Better to poach a high profile coach from a league that isn’t your own. Schembechler and Carr don’t have to deal with the internal fallout if the entire Iowa fanbase is pissed at Michigan.
I agree with this, although I'd say Sally Mason's tenure has also made MSC's tenure look better in retrospect.
But there’s no comparison between Skorton and Coleman in my mind.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I was a little puzzled by that quote myself
Although Vint kind of softened my feelings about her after that quote.
I, too, was a student while Coleman was president and during her departure to Michigan. I was also a server for IMU Catering and worked at a bunch of events she was at. For a university president, she was decidely anti-student and kind of looked down at us as peons. Basically a bitch. That type of person that doesn’t realize they shouldn’t be mean (or just ambivalent/rude/etc) to people that handle their food (or white wine, as it were—she ALWAYS had a glass of white wine and her elderly mother was always with her too).
by Captain n Diet Coker on Oct 26, 2011 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't remember beloving her
In any way, not saying it didn’t happen.
The only thing i do remember is getting both of my diplomas from her with the word ‘University’ spelled incorrectly.
That's funny.
And kind of sad.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Oct 28, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't tell anyone
It was pretty embarassing, don’t get me wrong, i can’t spell for shit, but i am an engineer :)
If memory serves, there were only two departments who got the flawed dip’s; BS Mechanical and BS Civil Engineering, what are the odds. Also, they said they would not send a new/corrected one unless i sent the old one in first.
There are two sides to every coin
(except Tajikistan’s cube-like six sided currency, but I don’t count that. I don’t even count them as a country).
but most students and a lot of profs and higher ups thought both sides of Coleman’s coin was pretty bitchy. She was known for being a good manager, but a little too robot professional at times. I guarantee you love and respect for Iowa had nothing to do with her decision not to look at Ferentz, unless her computations told her that this was the best way to exploit the humanoids.
AND DON’T GIVE ME YOUR DARN “ROBOTS CAN LOVE” ARGUMENT VIC! I SAW AI! THAT MOVIE WAS TERRIBLE!
by TangerinePony on Oct 26, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
You can tell a lot what people are really like by how they treat the help
And if she’s treating servers badly, imagine how she treats people that she has REAL power over… like shit, I would say. I would imagine there’s a lot of grumbling at Michigan too…
Never *question* Bruce Dickinson!
http://www.thebirdcult.net
by The Bird Cult on Oct 26, 2011 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
That's an old English saying about servants....
…..from the days of manor houses, and just as true today as back then. If that’s how she treated people serving her food and drink, then I don’t need to hear anything more about her to know her.
Skorton, however, was (and I bet still is) a great guy, with a terrific sense of humor. Few can stand up to him, as far as being personable is concerned. Too bad he left, but University president appointments are often very transient, for one reason or another (under 5-10 years, usually).
"Apparently, riding Joe Paterno like a small horse is FROWNED UPON IN THIS ESTABLISHMENT!"
by The Director on Oct 26, 2011 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions
From 1,500 miles away you could tell Coleman wasn't exactly very nice
I can’t recall anybody that I knew connected to the UI that had anything nice to say about her during her tenure, and just the alumni publications that were sent out dripped with arrogance… David Skorton was a good guy who did his job to usher Iowa to the next thing while he was President. It was so obvious that all Mary Sue was doing at Iowa was to pad her resume for the job she thought she deserved… I’ve said with her and guys like Rawlings, good riddance. Arrogant university presidents are more common than uncommon, but Iowa isn’t going to take the “next step” to being a more respected institution by having an overpaid talking asshole as its head… it just doesn’t fit the place. But we could get into a discussion of how ALL of the top people at big universities, like most corporate executives, are way overpaid these days in comparison to what they actually bring into the university.
Iowa would do itself a huge favor by picking presidents that actually want to be in Iowa City rather than looking as it as the Next Step To The Much Bigger Thing I Deserve Because I Am So Great.
Never *question* Bruce Dickinson!
http://www.thebirdcult.net
by The Bird Cult on Oct 26, 2011 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions
First things first, good stuff Vint.
The quality of the post wasn’t lessened, but I literally exclaimed “WHAAAAA!?” when I read the line about Coleman. I was on campus during her stint and have (again literally, yes the real meaning) never heard a GOOD word about her.
My mental image of her is the President of Port Chester University.
"TAYLOR MARTINEZ IS AIDS ON TWO FEET"
-@DanBeebe
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Oct 26, 2011 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
So does that make you Gutter or Pigman?
"West Texas seems to be full of fake boobs providing a comfortable shade for well-developed pot bellies" - Lycurgus (06/24/2011)
by BStylin Hawkye on Oct 27, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Josh Groban
Man, that was a low point for Michigan football. Maybe even lower than App State.
by mikjones24 on Oct 26, 2011 2:46 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I've been excited about the book since Brian plugged it at mgo, and I'll admit the Ferentz information was mostly the reason.
However, as I learn more and more I can’t wait to read it. To have that kind of access to ANY program, let alone the winningest in CFB history is incredible.
Thanks for the Ferentz info, though. Not knowing that bit was really starting to drive me crazy.
Few things ...
1) When I first heard of it, I thought the book title was an EDSBS gag.
2) If PV’s take is true, Mary Sue is a class act.
3) College sports is an incestuous business.
4) My chest swells a bit when I read that KF had the Bo Manball Seal of Approval.
5) What kind of terrible, dystopian, Beef O Bradys Forgetabowl future may we have been spared?
The answer? Aliens. Or not aliens.
by Blackheartnopants on Oct 26, 2011 3:02 PM CDT reply actions
5 is a good question (and may send this thread into a massive speculative tailspin)
If we look back at the coaches available, where does Iowa turn if Ferentz goes to Michigan?
Assuming that some of the prospects for Michigan at that time were also Iowa candidates the list I can compile off the top of my head is:
Hoke
Schiano
M.Stoops
Chuck Long (?)
I don’t even have an idea who the hot assistants were at the time and am spittballing and pulling from Michigan’s candidate list, with exceptions where Michigan choices had no shot at Iowa offers (ie Miles). Feel free to mock the list, but it could be a fun game to play.
by The Mexican't on Oct 26, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Hayden would have come back ala Bill Snyder K-State style and taken us to a Rose Bowl.
Which we would have lost by 3 scores.
by HawkeyeRecon on Oct 26, 2011 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmm
Hoke
Schiano
M.Stoops
Chuck Long (?)
AIIIIEEEEEE BURN IT WITH FIRE
Well, except Hoke, who seems like he might know a thing or two about coaching. That would have been the year before his crazy 12-1 year at Ball State, though, so I doubt he would have been getting much talk. Schiano has reportedly turned down Michigan and Miami to stay at Rugers, I think — I doubt he’d move to Iowa. That was also the year before Mike Stoops broke through at ‘Zona, so I’m not sure how in-demand he was. Chuck Long was midway through his middling tenure at SDSU; I’m sure he would have jumped at a chance to go to Iowa, but I don’t think that would have been a good idea.
Guys who were on the market in 2007:
- Bobby Petrino (went to Arkansas; is a snake; would probably not have considered Iowa; would have won a lot, probably) Houston Nutt (bounced from Arky to Ole Miss; seems 100% Southern boy; would drive Iowa fans crazy; would not be boring)
-
- Art Briles (Texan through and through; made Baylor not-terrible; maybe not a good fit) Steve Fairchild (went to Colo St; who?)
-
- David Cutcliffe (went to Duke; former Ole Miss HC and Tennessee OC; good coach; would have been interesting) Ted Roof (was terrible at Duke; was terrible DC at Minnesota; not option)
-
- Chan Gailey (fired from GT? Went… not sure where. Bland. Mostly mediocre.) Paul Johnson (option! Interesting, but probably not a good fit)
-
- June Jones (awesome, likes rebuild jobs, left Hawaii b/c SMU had $$$; June Jones + JC6 = COMEDY EXPLOSION) Kevin Sumlin (very interesting; former Oklahoma OC; became Houston HC; constantly rumored for bigger jobs… would have made Iowa offense waaay more explosive, I think)
-
- RichRod (probably would have been as much of an offensive 180 as he had at Michigan; interesting, though; is Iowa big enough for him to leave WVU?) Ed Orgeron (badass recruit, assy bad HC)
-
- Ken Niumatalolo (like CPJ, minus the crazies) Bill Callahan (LOL FUCK NO)
-
- Bo Pelini (intriguing as hell; was LSU DC; too spazzy?) Jerry Kill (intriguing, low-key option, skill as big boy HC TBD)
-
- Jeff Bower (who?) Larry Fedora (AWESOME name, offensive guru, OC at Okie State and Florida… not interested in leaving the south?)
-
- Dennis Franchione (meh) Mike Sherman (meh)
-
- Karl Dorrell (meh) Rick Neuheisal (pretty boy, but meh)
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- Bill Stewart (I already have a grandpa, thanks) Paul Wulff (the Wazzou job is hard, yeah, but… MEH)
-
That’s just the guys who actually changed jobs, of course… I’m sure there were other candidates who didn’t actually move around. Most of those wouldn’t have been too exciting and/or wouldn’t have been that interested (or we shouldn’t have been too interested in them). Sumlin is intriguing, though. He’s gonna get a big-time job in a year or two, though.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
fucking SBN formatting.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Chan Gailey is the head coach for the Bills now
He was fired from GA Tech in 2007. He went to KC to be Todd Haley’s OC but lasted just a year. He was out of football in 2009 before getting the Bills gig in 2010.
Comedy is where the mind goes to tickle itself.
Yeah, I knew he was at Buffalo this year and doing improbably well.
I just had no idea where he went between GT and Buffalo. Thanks.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Till I read this comment
I thought the strike-thru was intentional. I didn’t understand it but I figured you knew what you were doing.
The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.
by HawkeyeGirleye on Oct 26, 2011 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
If only.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Run with it
You had me snowed
The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.
by HawkeyeGirleye on Oct 26, 2011 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought similarly.
Then, I said, “wow, he seems to be crossing only every other name off this list.”
Then, I realized there were plenty of shitty coaches not crossed off, and I just focused on reading the list.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Oct 28, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
June Jones. Oh man, that might have been fun.
I wonder how many hot coordinators may have been approached, or even considered a job like Iowa. Would a Dan Mullen move to Iowa City just to put his name out there for a potential return down south (ala Kevin Wilson at IU)?
I sure am glad it didn’t go down, but that would have made for one hell of an offseason.
by The Mexican't on Oct 26, 2011 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don't know.
On the plus side, Iowa is in a prestigious conference, is clearly willing to spend a lot of money on a football coach, has a pretty large and rabid fanbase, and has good facilities. We’re also a pretty patient bunch.
On the down side, recruiting is challenging, and while the resources and support are good, they’re not overwhelming.
I don’t remember who all was interested in the job after Hayden retired, other than the obvious guys (KF, Stoops, the UNI guy).
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
OT - those facilities are getting an upgrade, too
I heard they’ve broken ground on the new indoor practice facility next to the Rec Building.
It’s needed – the Bubble is busted.
Comedy is where the mind goes to tickle itself.
that's true, it is
but it’s absolutely nothing compared to a perfectly landscaped major conference southern school where you can play football and chase skirts outside all year.
Yeah, very true.
I neglected to mention weather and location on the down sides list.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
You can chase skirts up north too
Its a lot easier to see what a girl looks like in tight jeans ;)
Never *question* Bruce Dickinson!
http://www.thebirdcult.net
by The Bird Cult on Oct 26, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep, the sketches of the new facilities look quite nice indeed.
We’re never going to have Oregon-style luxury, but it should be pretty solid.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
The newfangled, computer-image mock-ups never work for me.
They put all of those soulless, digital vampires walking around in the picture and it just kills any excitement I might feel feel for whatever the project in question happens to be.
"TAYLOR MARTINEZ IS AIDS ON TWO FEET"
-@DanBeebe
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Oct 26, 2011 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah,
those Japanese adult cartoons just don’t get me going, either.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Oct 28, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I went to high school with June Jones III
June was our quarterback at dear old US Grant High in Portland, OR. He led the conference in interceptions, but to be far, our coach and his 1904 offensive scheme was extraordinarily lame. Jone’s path to success is interesting. Washed out as a player at Oregon and Hawaii, but then found life in his last year of eligibility at Portland State (where 4th and inches “was an obvious passing down”. I’m glad to see him having success.
by Space Hawkeye on Oct 26, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
The current Green Bay OC, Whatshisface?
The answer? Aliens. Or not aliens.
by Blackheartnopants on Oct 26, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Aiken, the former Iowa OL coach?
Yeah, that would be interesting. With the way their offense is humming, though, he may have moved himself out of NCAA range and into consideration for NFL head coaching jobs. (Of course, he won’t have Aaron Rodgers to run his offense somewhere else…)
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
That's Joe Philbin
Ron Aiken is the DL coach for the Cardinals.
Comedy is where the mind goes to tickle itself.
Ah, thanks. Philbin is definitely who I meant.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
He'd be an interesting candidate, Philbin.
OL coach in 2002.
There’s an Allegheny College on Philbin’s resume from 1990-1993. The head coach at Allegheny those years?
Ken O’Keefe.
Comedy is where the mind goes to tickle itself.
Allegheny! Cradle of Coaches!
The answer? Aliens. Or not aliens.
by Blackheartnopants on Oct 26, 2011 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't Knock Allegheny
they grow some tough steel mill kids in the Allegheny area unlike the soft doughy kids who grow up to the east of the area.
"Make it tasteful, but dongier" - Blackheartnopants
Ramblerbait?
Ramblerbait
"West Texas seems to be full of fake boobs providing a comfortable shade for well-developed pot bellies" - Lycurgus (06/24/2011)
by BStylin Hawkye on Oct 27, 2011 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm also not sure the degree to which it's his offense
McCarthy had a fairly longer career as a QB coach or offensive coordinator, so I think that might be his baby to a large extent. Philbin would definitely be worth a look though, and I’d rather have him than Aiken (who doesn’t seem to have done all that spectacular a job in Arizona).
People here won’t like it, but my first call would be Bielema. He’s in a good situation and probably won’t leave, but it’d be worth a shot. Throw a big contract at him and see if he wants to come home. The guy can clearly coach.
I think my first call would still be to Stoops, just because.
The good one, that is.
But Bielema would be my second call.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Fuck yes.
To all three of those sentences.
"Pursue happiness... with diligence."
by Bucketochicken on Oct 26, 2011 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep
Damnit.
The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.
by HawkeyeGirleye on Oct 26, 2011 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Four words:
Bob and Ron Zook.
We will become more intensity!!! --What Reading Rambler thinks Tom Brands should do.
by WaterlooChazz on Oct 28, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Would Larry Fedora have been able to recruit Fedora-witz and Derby boys?
He may even have been able to lure Beanie Wells to Iowa City!
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Oct 26, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know, but I don't think he even wears a fedora on the sidelines...
which is HIGHLY disappointing.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Given that Rich rod turned down ‘bama at the eleventh hour the year before he took the Michigan job I think it’s safe to say Michigan was one of only a handful of 4-5 schools that could have enticed him to leave WV.
Can you imagine how different college football would be right now if Rich Rod had taken the ’Bama job? Saban might have stayed with the Dolphins another year… and ended up as the Michigan coach.
http://www.frogsowar.com/
by HawkeyedFrog on Oct 26, 2011 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow
That Bellanca post made it unexpectedly dusty. Hey everyone? Norm is going out on his own terms.
by txhawkeye on Oct 26, 2011 3:09 PM CDT via iPhone app reply actions
Michigan should never have fired RichRod
He was on track to win 15 games in 2014!
by 99FormationsButFourWideAin'tOne on Oct 26, 2011 3:21 PM CDT reply actions
Let me fix that for you
He was on track to win 15 gamesinby 2014!
"Sometimes the truth gets in the way of a good story" - KF
by The Bacon Explosion on Oct 26, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Awesome archival inclusion
FYI, it remains technically possible on this sbn plaform to rec posts & comments from 2007.
I think it was the 'bad blood' concern rather than 'off field problems'
I think MSC didn’t want to create tension in the Big 10 by stealing Ferentz versus worrying about the off field issues. After all, West Virginia didn’t win good citizenship awards with Pacman Jones and other miscreants. I agree with others who have posted about MSC being most concerned about the career of MSC. I believe she isn’t above poaching, but in weighing the pros and cons, saw more cons in offering to Ferentz. During her term, I was an alum serving on two university advisory boards. I spent time with her on many occasions. At first, I was impressed by her energy and somewhat by her vision. But then that vision became foggy, and I also didn’t like being rebuffed when offering advice (I received the, “just write us a check and keep your opinions to yourself” arrogance). Damn, I miss Skorton.
I think there's probably an unspoken rule....
…..about coach-poaching in the Big 10. I can’t think of a football HC who went from one Big Ten school directly to another, at least not in the last 40 years. In the SEC—different story entirely. But the Big Ten seems like a place where university presidents don’t want to be "That guy’ (or lady, in Coleman’s case) to have stolen a coach from a fellow school. I think that attitude stems as much from the academic relationships between schools and presidents as athletics, probably even more so.
Which is why I doubt Bielema would ever be offered the Iowa job when he is still the Wisconsin coach. He’d have to move out of conference for that to happen.
"Apparently, riding Joe Paterno like a small horse is FROWNED UPON IN THIS ESTABLISHMENT!"
by The Director on Oct 26, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder, tho, if having ties to a particular school changes things?
Ferentz has been mentioned over the years with PSU (geographical tie? Ok, sounds lame). & the whole Hayden/Alvarez/Bielema connection between us & Wiscy?
The University of Iowa: the best 6 years of my life. My parents are very proud.
by HawkeyeGirleye on Oct 27, 2011 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions
























