More Thoughts on Iowa and the Rhabdo Problem
by Adam Jacobi on Jan 27, 2011 8:01 AM CST
in Iowa Hawkeyes Football
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PrintI've written about Rhabdopalooza plenty over at the All-Seeing Eye, so here are some more thoughts on top of what's already been said.
It's pretty obvious by now that Kirk Ferentz doesn't care about PR. I don't say that in a derogatory way at all, because we can all think of people in all walks of life and at all levels of achievement who care so much about perception that they turn into slick-when-it's-good, excuse-filled-when-it's-bad, intolerable blowhards. Kirk Ferentz is most certainly not that. He is the type, on the other hand, to find out that his staff can handle a situation where 13 players need hospitalization since none are in real trouble and then take his time getting back to Iowa City. Ferentz takes care of the most pragmatically pressing need in front of him, and right now, that's recruiting. It is! If he cancels recruiting appointments this close to Signing Day, the recruits will certainly understand. They'll "understand" that the program turns to crap every time Ferentz turns his back to it, and they'll "understand" that the S&C program is clearly doing things wrong. Why, they'll "understand" all the way to a different program on February 3. All over conditions that won't materially change if Ferentz is back in Iowa or not.
At least so it is in the world of Kirk Ferentz and his cartoonishly optimistic sports information department, where the hospitalization of a dozen (and then 13) Hawkeyes can be explained away with a vague press release that ends with "The UI expects no further comment at this time." The university expected nobody to reveal that the hospitalization was the proximate result of severe training right off a break that was allegedly intensified by peer pressure without S&C coach intervention. That secret, obviously, didn't stay secret.
And then the press conference. Jesus hell, the press conference. Paul Federici was absolutely hung out to dry by Barta and the rest of the athletic department, as all he would talk about is timing and other procedural matters. Anything else--including any question of a follow-up nature--Federici couldn't answer. Which, y'know, you expect from the director of football operations, right? Right? Anybody?
I worry about how bad that press conference would have been without Biff Poggi. I really do. He may be an old Ferentz friend, but he was the only one saying anything of merit at that press conference, and there was more information about specifics that came out from Poggi than would have if Ferentz and Barta were there. In fact, you think the backlash is bad now? Imagine if Barta and Ferentz were there and they stonewalled on the "I wasn't there" front as badly as Federici and Holmes did. The fallout would be worse than if they never showed up to the presser at all.
Kirk Ferentz needs to be careful. I don't think this incident will necessitate his firing, nor do I think it should. As Biff Poggi said, this type of workout happens everywhere. Further, Ferentz clearly has Barta's support, and there's nothing to suggest that sports information director Phil Haddy is anything less than Ferentz's ideal SID: a terse propagandist until someone on the team wins an award. In that sense, Ferentz is much different than Mike Leach.
Where Ferentz isn't different from Leach, however, is in his approach to non-football issues. To both these men, PR and all that is basically theater. They're not wrong; people want to see public demonstrations of positive values at every opportunity, and Kirk Ferentz has generally succeeded there. But he doesn't go out of his way to do so, which again speaks to his mostly Iowan/Midwestern value set, but which also opens him up for serious criticism when things start going bad. And when the UI can't even communicate the fact that Ferentz has contacted the parents of the afflicted players or that they want to get out of the hospital and back to workouts until a parent says so at a press conference, the athletic department only magnifies the perception problems facing Ferentz.
Anyway, the more information that comes out, the more I'll think about this and have to say about it. Frankly, I'd love to hear more from some players themselves, but that's probably not about to happen. In that sense, the UI is winning the message battle. At the same time, they are most certainly losing the war of perception, and that is a war that usually costs many their jobs.
Thoughts on this? Again, Ferentz's job isn't in trouble over this, but the more he distances himself from the problem--like, he hasn't said anything--the more I wonder what the hell purpose Iowa's sports information department exists to serve. DO SOMETHING GOOD ALREADY.
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This whole thing seems blown remarkably out of proportion
But that’s just me.
by Bryce Carlson on Jan 27, 2011 8:06 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
And I think the head coach stonewalling is one of the reasons why.
Perhaps my best years are gone... but I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.
twitter.com/jebushchrist
by jebushchrist on Jan 27, 2011 8:08 AM CST up reply actions
What can he say?
I wasn’t there and anything I have to say would be hearsay, so I’m not going to say anything? Does he have to approve everything Doyle does? Do we want to hear him say that he did or didn’t approve an intense start to spring workouts? Not really sure what a full disclosure on his part would provide.
I don't know I'm calling for full disclosure
But when you say nothing it throws fuel on the fire. Even if you (we) didn’t start the fire it behooves you to put it out.
Perhaps my best years are gone... but I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.
twitter.com/jebushchrist
by jebushchrist on Jan 27, 2011 8:21 AM CST up reply actions
Although Ferentz may not approve everything
The role of the head coach is to oversee the program. He doesn’t need to approve the workouts, but I’d like to think he knows what the kids were doing and would be willing to give a basic understanding of the exercises that put 13 kids in the hospital.
As a Hawkeye fan, sure I think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, but the non-sports side of me is still saying, “What the hell are you doing with these kids that’s caused 13 of them to experience a serious medical malady?” It’s one thing for cross-fit geeks to joke about Uncle Rhabdo, it’s another entirely for a group of football players to meet said uncle.
If Federici didn’t have any answers, then Doyle should have been in attendance. Someone, anyone, that could have at least said, “Look this is the workout, I know it sounds extreme to you lazy asses, but these are athletes and, in our experience, athletes can handle it. We’re looking into what went wrong and will evaluate the workout once we have all the information.”
by The Mexican't on Jan 27, 2011 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Reasonable.
Is this a situation that should’ve even reached the point of a press conference? I think that’s where UI went wrong here. Put out some moderately informative press releases while staying within the HIPAA guidelines, maybe roll out Ferentz or Barta for an interview once they were back in town, and be done with it.
It’s a big deal, but from 900 miles away it looks like Iowa burned their tongue on some soup, and instead of acting reasonably, decided to fix the situation by dumping the entire bowl in their collective laps.
--
A T-bone steak, cheese, eggs, and Welch's grape.
@scrappled
Slow States - Football, music, craft beer, and podcasts with an industrial slant.
by Run Up The Score on Jan 27, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well put
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Jan 27, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
A few decades of compulsively reading sports pages, locally and nationally,
and I have never — never — seen a whisper about such a severe outcome of a single workout.
Note, that if players are denied water these days coaches are fired. If horses (the kind with hooves) are sent en masse to the hospital, someone gets arrested.
I really find the casual, what the hey, it’s football and young men and steel, opinions here weird. Perhaps, as for Stanzi’s ex-, it’s a function of my being a parent and having made a few trips to the hospital on the children’s behalf. Projecting those emotions here, I would be gritting my death and saying to Gary Barta and his mealy-mouthed minions, “Really? Renal failure? My boy has renal failure and may need dialysis? But you hope not? And that’s it, Go Hawks?”
When people start talking about potentially needing dialysis because they got a little sporty in the weight room, values are slipping.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
by Bellanca on Jan 27, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn't attempting to excuse anyone.
I’m expecting my first and agree that if my child were involved I’d probably lose my mind. Initially. Biff Poggi’s child was affected and he seemed to believe that his child was recovering well and will survive. Obviously, he didn’t look thrilled about the event, but someone clearly eased his worries. Or maybe he was putting on a great game face for the media.
Someone will likely be fired for this fiasco. If news breaks that dialysis is required for any of the 13 this will hit full-scale shitstorm. I would guess that some (including myself) are trying to take, at least, some positive from this fuck up. The only positive being that these kids are recovering.
by The Mexican't on Jan 27, 2011 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
You sound like you've been in the military or could sign your son up
Or have ridden a bike on a street with cars moving
Or have played organized sports in general
Or have ridden in a vehicle
Or tried mind-altering substances
All things in life carry risk of death, and strenuous football workouts are no different. I understand the call for better supervision but I’m dumbfounded by the outcry. Humans are strange and sometimes fragile in their bodies.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
I've done most of that, as well as some other stuff that proved more dangerous, and it doesn't compare with supervised, by-design, life-threatening workouts under the supervision of adults.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
I'll bet a lot of it is a hell of a lot more dangerous
This was an outlier. All of those I mentioned are probably more dangerous (percentage of deaths/major injury by time involved). Step outside the instant insanity of this and see that shit happens in life, and we’re supposed to learn from that.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
I'm also surprised at how many people don't think this is a big deal.
Having a routine or system that puts 13 student athletes in the hospital for something which, if a bit worse, could have resulted in death or permanent injury seems like a huge fuck-up of the first order. This could have resulted in a real tragedy that would have made the Iowa football program a watchword for athletic administrative negligence for the foreseeable future. As a fan and alumni that makes me very concerned about how this could happen.
This seems so atypical though that it makes me think there must be something else involved. Whether it is creatine use, dehydration, or something else; the coaches and trainers have to get to the bottom of it, and I think that they need to make public what the results are and demonstrate that they have made the necessary adjustments to prevent something like this from ever happening again.
If you are an east coast or southern recruit with offers to Wisconsin, Missouri, Nebraska and Iowa, I would think something like this would automatically remove Iowa from your list. Especially for parents of recruits. I’m not sure if Ferentz should have come back immediately or not, but I do think he has to make this right by finding out what happened, making adjustments or implementing safeguards to make sure something like this never happens again, and then effectively communicating it to the school and the media. This is not the time to stonewall.
I’m a huge Ferentz supporter but I think this event is a very big deal and how he handles it could have huge implications for the his (and the program’s) future.
by HawkeyeRecon on Jan 27, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Bellanca,
As I’ve said elsewhere, this is a serious issue and a big deal. Obviously the University’s message to parents is going to be different than their message to the general public (Go Hawks!).
But everyone keeps focusing on the number 13 here. The high number is an indicator of just the changing culture you mentioned (coaches getting fired for withholding water, etc.). The high number might even be an positive indicator: that Iowa has an extremely conservative approach to player health-management. 30 years ago, these guys would have been told to shrug it off an go home (and probably would have been find, but maybe not). 15 years ago, the one or two guys who initially complained to the training staff would have been admitted while the others with milder cases would have gone about their business. Today, the one or two guys who initially complained started a chain-reaction of every player being called and being interviewed about symptoms. Surprise! A bunch of guys with identical workouts and similar lifestyles and chemical intakes showed mild symptoms of the same condition that was affecting a few guys seriously. They get admitted, and, viola! public scandal.
by The Final Gun on Jan 27, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure if they can say how the players were injured under HIPAA
I honestly don’t know. And it would be nice if they said “we can’t say because of HIPAA”
I am the HIPAA representative for my company
And I don’t even know what it stands for.
No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer
by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jan 27, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
Seriously?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act
It was a law made in 1996.
If you feel inclined to read it.
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
No thanks
I don’t get paid extra if I know things about it.
No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer
by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jan 27, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
Perhaps SID needs to hire The Mexican't?
That last part of the comment would’ve done the trick. So tired of my beloved Hawkeyes appearing for all the world to have their heads up their a$$es.
by HawkeyeGirleye on Jan 27, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Change head coach to entire AD and I fully agree with you.
Still agree with you, really.
"As long as he behaves himself in this town, I ain't got no, ah...jurisdiction." - Link Appleyard, NCAA Compliance Officer
by ReadingRambler on Jan 27, 2011 8:11 AM CST up reply actions
This goes right back to a point I brought up a while ago
Who the hell is the boss here? If Ferentz is the boss, then he should be stepping up (leadership 101) and putting out the fire. It’s irrelevant if he started the fire, or if he even had any idea that there was the possibility of a fire.
On the other hand, if Barta is the boss, then Barta needs to get his ass in gear. Come out, say in no uncertain terms something like the following:
“The guys pushed themselves too hard in the weight room. Because of HIPAA I can’t say a whole lot more about it than that. What I can say is there was a failure by the players to use common sense about pushing themselves too hard and a failure by the S&C coaches to stop them from doing something that could injure themselves. We’re going to get all the facts, and make the appropriate adjustments to our protocols and procedures to make sure it doesn’t happen again.”
I have 3 kids – if one of my kids were one of the players, and that’s what the AD said to me, I’d accept that and move on.
Please note that the internet does not, as of yet, have a sarcasm font.
Saying the S&C coaches failed
is admitting fault. The U lawyers will never, ever allow that.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
This raises an interesting questions:
If the players sue the school for not more carefully monitoring the workout and are given a cash-settlement, does that violate the NCAA player-compensation rules?
If not, could all these just be a sneaky way to pay our student-athletes? (“Hey guys, if you work out until you’re in the hospital, we’ll settle with you for fifty grand and fire this assistant strength coach we were going to fire anyway.”)
Obviously, I don’t think this is happening. But I find it interesting.
by The Final Gun on Jan 27, 2011 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
It's this type of lawyering
that reminds me of something my grandmother used to say whenever she would see something outside of the “old-school” right and wrong mentality – particularly things like personal accountability and responsibility.
“I have obviously gotten way too old to be living in today’s world”
Please note that the internet does not, as of yet, have a sarcasm font.
I can't agree more with this
But, like you, that’s just me.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Jan 27, 2011 8:49 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe part of the reason Biff was the only one talking
is that he’s the only one who can’t be sued by a parent for a violation, or perceived violation, of HIPAA. I’m not saying that HIPAA is the sole reason for the way the SID has handled this, but I’m sure it factors in somehow. IF the SID was normally fabulous in these situations, then maybe it is just HIPAA, but their track record shows it’s more than that.
This is clearly true. You just can't discuss an athlete's medical chart publicly.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
Well
I think they’re using the HIPAA thing as a bit of a shield. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with them not saying much more than what they have (although, I would have liked to see Doyle there perhaps), but as was mentioned, it’s not like there’s much Ferentz can add to it. He wasn’t there, probably doesn’t know all the specifics, etc. But the HIPAA makes a great catch-all to hide behind, especially since nobody really completely understands it. Hell, IIRC, that’s what they used when the Everson/Satterfield case first came out to dodge it.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Sally? Using HIPAA as a shield?
No fucking way! That has NEVER happened just a few years ago.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 27, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Honestly?
I don’t know what to think anymore.
"If there's one thing Nixon is known for, it's class. Now let's cut this turd loose!"
- Richard Nixon's Head, President of Earth
That's the smartest thing I've seen on this subject.
There is so much nuance. As soon as I heard about this stuff I said to my wife “I’d be nice to know what happened, but we never will.”
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 27, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
I'm really not worried about our AD
beyond the SID. The past 3 months have seemed a lot worse than they actually are due to mishandling of information and the press by the SID. It appears that our SID can’t control the flow of information or redirect the story to something positive on its own. Ferentz shouldn’t have to comment on something that happened to his players during training until he is back on campus and able to talk to Doyle and the players themselves. Any comment he makes before that time is uninformed, potentially wrong and irresponsible. Its the SID’s job to handle this type of situation and keep it from becoming the story (and subsequent PR backlash) that it has become, and they failed at that (yet again).
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
Everything the SID says/does is signed off on by people higher up the food chain.
As frustrating as Haddy’s shitty job performance is, I’m not convinced it would be that improved with someone else in place unless the attitudes further up the chain have a come to Jesus moment about the importance of good P.R. Or at least neutral P.R. that isn’t shitting all over yourself.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Lately I have been very thankful to live out of state
Because I can only imagine how much in state coverage this is getting. To me it sounds like a relative non-issue. The workouts were too hard due to prior rest and peer pressure. A problem arose (Rhabdo) and was treated quickly and professionally by the UIHC. To me that sounds like a University that is looking after it’s players closely, even when the players are not acting in their own best interest.
Living out of state doesn't help in this information age
Type “football pl” into yahoo and “iowa football players hospitalized” pops up.
That’s bad PR news nationwide.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Jan 27, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
HAHAHA who uses Yahoo! as their search engine anymore?
Everyone knows Bing is where it’s at.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Fuck that
I’m old and lazy. I have a general dislike of microsoft, and I’ll decide what I want, not some damn search engine
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Jan 27, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Fuck Bing
Google all day
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Yeah, it was meant as a joke.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
Actually, here in Iowa City it doesn't seem that big of a deal. No one I know is talking about it... until I get on the internet.
by Eyeheartfreedumb on Jan 27, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
THIS.
The only place on campus I have discussed this?
My Issues in Intercollegiate Athletics seminar this afternoon.
by Bryce Carlson on Jan 27, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
i took that class. Enjoyed it.
But I got shafted on my grade: 83. I wrote AT LEAST a 86 paper. I’m still a little bitter about it.
Let's look at this in a brighter light
“Hawkeye football team visits hospital patients”
by BoilerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 8:56 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
one two
Princes here before you
What I said now
One two
Princes who adore you
Be afraid now
And if you
Would like to send them flowers
Just go ahead now
And if you
Would like to talk PR for hours
Go ahead now
Ba da Ba dip
Ba da Ba dip dip dip do dowww
I've been in love (truly) with five women, the Spanish Republic and the 4th Infantry Division.
by sailorjerry on Jan 27, 2011 9:34 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Spin Doctors
ftw
"GO HAWKS!" - only cure for Hawkeye Envy
Hayden Fry. You are welcome college football.
by BentNotBroken on Jan 27, 2011 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
When I scrolled down and saw the first few lines
I thought this was an Ohiohawk post.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
You're saying OhioHawk could have written for the Spin Doctors?
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
I'm saying they could potentially still be popular with him writing.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
A retard chimp
could have written for the Spin Doctors.
/shuders at the memory of that awful, awful time in music history.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
do we have any proof that one didn't?
I've been in love (truly) with five women, the Spanish Republic and the 4th Infantry Division.
No we don't
and it would certainly clarify a few things if that is the case.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
Since I am overly paranoid and generally uptight...
…this kind of thing makes me crazy. Mainly because I am viewing this as a new parent. If this happened to my son, I would be furious, and I guarantee there would be talk of suing. It is someone’s job to make sure this kind of thing shouldn’t happen. I’m really glad all the boys are fine, but my mind keeps going back to “what if?” What if one (or more) of them needed dialysis, or even died? As Jacobi said, none of the coaches intervened when this thing supposedly became a contest which led to the situation. That is simply unacceptable to me. And what pisses me off most about it all is the mad scramble to cover all their assess. I am old school – I believe if you do something wrong you own up to it and accept responsibility. But I can see why someone more laid back than me would have a different reaction. I’m just trying to imagine how the parents are feeling right now.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 9:02 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I am old school – I believe if you do something wrong you own up to it and accept responsibility.
So if the players initiated the contest, are they at fault?
well, you have supervision
it’s not complicated. I belong to a recreational gym that would put a stop to that.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
And the gym would probably ban you from their facility
But (purely being devil’s advocate) nobody is calling for the removal of the players as per your analogy.
I would expect that after the whole bar dropping incident at USC--and now the lawsuit (which he will win)
that EVERY football weight room in the US has tightened things up.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't hear about that... you have a link?
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
It disappeared from the front page at ESPN
by The Mexican't on Jan 27, 2011 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
Just like this will quickly disappear
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
fact
I've been in love (truly) with five women, the Spanish Republic and the 4th Infantry Division.
by sailorjerry on Jan 27, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
The way this month has gone
It’ll be replaced by another story of a drunken Hawkeye running naked through the pedmall.
by The Mexican't on Jan 27, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
This should disappear.
This is not the end of the world shitstorm everyone seems to want this to be. Everyone needs to take a step back and relax. Having been an athlete I can tell you that doing 100 squats in something like 17 min is not that uncommon. Definitely not an easy workout and it was probably too early after a break to do a workout like this, but it sounds like business as usual to me. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like rhabdo is generally very easy to treat and only rarely causes serious complications. Certainly not something to ignore which is probably why any players with symptoms were hospitalized, but also not something to start screaming for the blood of the athletic department about.
The only question in my mind is why so many players had symptoms. This might simply be due to the fact that the football team is big and you have a pot of players involved in these workouts, or what I think is more likely is that the athletes themselves are taking supplements (most likely legal non-FDC regulated GNC type junk) that has caused some kind of adverse reaction. It’s not hard to imagine players recommending whatever they’re taking to other players so its entirely plausible that a group of players is taking some crappy albeit legal supplement. So this is what I personally hope they look into. Beyond that I don’t think anyone should get fired. If a workout isn’t kicking your ass you’re doing it wrong. What do you want them to do to train? Hold hands and sing?
by HawkeyeInExile on Jan 27, 2011 11:56 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
At this point I am absolutely HOPING
that the cause is some sort of legal, GNC-bought supplement. But the way this season/off-season has gone, I won’t be surprised if it’s something much worse.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
No, it is the coach who was supervising them who is at fault.
The kids were stupid to do this, to be sure. But I am assuming the coach is paid well to oversee their workouts and ensure shit like this didn’t happen. And obviously he failed.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
I agree, I was just being devil's advocate.
Just so I don’t get flamed, and I should have clarified in my post.
You're already flaming, right?
/Don’t flame me in return! I know this is a stupid comment!
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
I was going to post this, but thought better of it.
I love you PackerHawk <3
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
This I know
Recall from previous comments. Just had to throw out a stupid comment to try to lighten up the crazy pontificating of some in this discussion
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Why is the first workout back from a month break a 100 squat day?
Why do football players need to do 100 squats in 20 minutes?
I also don’t think anyone should be fired, but this workout seems completely nonsensical to me. Doing 100 reps of anything doesn’t really build explosiveness in an athelete, which is what you would want for a football player. I don’t know why you can’t work the guys back into a lifting routine before you hit them with the “workout from hell”.
I’m not sure why assistant coaches are so scarce when it comes to interview time at Iowa, but I think having Doyle there would have made things a little better.
It's early off season
You don’t worry about building explosiveness at this stage. You’re just trying to build a base. As I said in the other thread, the workout itself isn’t the problem, as I guarantee pretty much every school in the country does something similar. The problem is doing it the first day or week back. Admittedly, that was the biggest mistake in the matter.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Yes, the timing is my main question
though lots of reps at lower weight is more for body building than athletic performance
Well aware
but again, at this stage of the off-season, that’s what you do.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
I think a workout like this is more of a message.
We are here to put work in and our 4th quarter collapses will not be tolerated next year.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Lets address the 800 pound gorilla in the room
The players are all pussies for whining to the doctors. If I were Rich Rod, I would order them back to voluntary practice (NCAA rules are for losers) and throw in a 1000 sets of suicides on top of the squats. Maybe then we could beat jNW next year.
"You’re talking about things that are real. That’s real. In those other dual meets, it wasn’t real, but now it’s real." ~ Tom Brands regarding the Iowa State dual.
You're going too easy on them
1000 is the warm-up
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
I find this event shocking and troubling. I don't know how it could be overblown, per the above.
It’s a more serious event than 13 players being admitted for heat stroke/dehydration during two-a-days, and I do think that the alarms would be ringing much more loudly if there were some Frank Laterbur sadistic-you-don’t-need-water practice causing heat stroke and dehydration. Part of the confused response to this is none of us has ever heard of this particular trauma, but endangering 13 guys’ kidneys is just a little bit over the line of reasonable athletic accidental behavior, for me.
I do not believe that this sort of thing happens commonly at other programs, and I do think severe errors in judgment were made. I don’t care that Barta didn’t walk out there and throw Doyle under the bus, because that would have made things worse. And I don’t expect any of the rag dolls in the SID to do more than smile and fetch coffee at this school, because you might as well expect some dipshits in the Junior Chamber of Commerce to teach Ph.D candidates financial economics. I do expect Ferentz to take full responsibility for what went wrong. He is responsible for his ship; he is responsible for 13 guys (minimum) being endangered. Will Barta require that? Will changes be made? I don’t know.
We see time and time again with this program a love of process, and when things go wrong, it’s always defended with a recitation of process. More emphasis on executive accountability for outcomes, and less fetishistic devotion to “process”, would eliminate some of the more disturbing characteristics of this program. Ferentz only has three or four direct reports, and each of them only has up to 7 reports, and each of the staff is only responsible for up to 10 guys. I would hope that this scary situation would lead some soul-searching.
When it came out that DJK was living with a guy with drug dealing priors, Ferentz snidely suggested that he “guessed” they could start requiring background checks on roommates. (Again, a new process.) I would suggest, as an alternative, he could just know who his players are living with, since all of the guys know (just as all of the guys knew that Tillison wasn’t living in his dorm room). Here, I would suggest, a defense of potentially fatal trauma might result in something other than, “We’ll need to review our oversight of workout intensity, and establish better working dialogue between Doyle and medical and training staff blah blah blah.”
We play tackle football, most of the time.
by Bellanca on Jan 27, 2011 9:15 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
"as an alternative, he could just know who his players are living with"
Do you know with whom all of your employees live? Do you have over 85 employees? If you know this information, you are a micromanager to the fucking extreme.
My boss is a micromanager, and he doesn’t know the roommates of all of his 25 non-college student employees. College kids change roommates like they change underwear these days.
This example is maybe off topic, so to get back on, I would suggest that Ferentz, as CEO, can’t hold the assistant coaches’ hands on everything and must trust them to do the best job and get rid of those who don’t. I think we agree on this, but your posts are starting to sound like you want Ferentz to micromanage the shit out of everything, and that isn’t possible between recruiting, coaching, making game plans, etc.
You got no fear of the underdog; That's why you will not survive!
by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jan 27, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
No, not micromanage
but just for someone, sometime to TAKE FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY when things go bad. Instead, whenever there is a problem, it’s immediately described as a failure of the “process”. Well, part of any fucking process is having someone who is responsible for implementing and overseeing it. When it goes wrong, that person’s feet need to be held to the fire. Instead, we keep getting, over and over and over and over again, told that the problem was some ill-defined, nebulous, disembodied “process”.
It is often said that victory has a thousand fathers while defeat is an orphan. That same mentality pervades the football program, and a number of fans/supporters. When we do well, everyone steps up to congratute KF and the other coaches. When things go wrong, those same people are quick to find random happenstance and weird coincidence as the the only place for blame. The coaches need to take the rap for the bad, as well as the good; and have been shockingly adverse to any notion that this is the case.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
by HoyaGoon on Jan 27, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
"I do not believe that this sort of thing happens commonly at other programs"
Are you implying that it happens commonly at Iowa? Or that it only occurs occasionally at other programs, just as it does here?
Remember this guy?
http://www.ath.umich.edu/jeffreese/
Or these kids?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/sports/24tissue.html?_r=2
What about him?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/albert-haynesworth/rhabdomyolysis-sidelined-hayne.html
What about the U.S. military, where an estimated 1 out of every 300 recruits contracts acute rhabdomyolisis during basic, despite the fact that they take huge precautions to prevent it?
Exercising too much is just as dangerous as not exercising enough. It’s up to student athletes to know their limits and for their S&C coaches to help them find and push those limits safely. Something broke down here, and I’m sure it’ll get addressed. Ascribing this mishap to some sort of paranoid narrative of systemic failure or addiction to process in our football program is ridiculous.
Brunettes not fighter jets
by rockyh on Jan 27, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
1/300 soldiers
PALES in comparison to 13 out of about 120, or 10 fucking percent. 1-2 cases would certainly be understandable given the time and circumstances, 13 is not. This could very well be due to a group of the guys using the same over-the-counter supplement and having a bad reaction (because most of that stuff is snake-oil shit); but the the fact remains that a significant segment of the team is in the hospital for the same reason resulting from an activity overseen but a sizable portion of the staff. Heads might not need to roll, but questions certainly need to be answered. Shrugging it off as “eh, these things happen” is the very epitome of an ostrich-like desire to bury your head in the sand, and one that is far too prevelant across the fanbase.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
No one is happy that this happened, and I don't think anyone is just accepting this and moving on,
including the S&C staff. Even if this had never gone public, I bet that they would be assessing and adjusting their approach in this situation. This condition is too counterproductive to both the coaches and the athletes to NOT be re-assessed. I feel like my previous comments may have been interpreted as “eh, these things happen”, but that is far from what I’m saying. My personal perspective, instead, is that the S&C and football coaching staffs are more upset about this than anyone. When it comes down to it, basically they were responsible for potentially risking the lives of 13 of their student athletes. Not only the lives and wellness of the student-athletes they are responsible for, but in many cases probably even their friends or "professional acquaintances, and also their own personal livelihoods. They will assess the situation, identify what they believe is the root cause, and make necessary adjustments. Events like this are counterproductive in far too many ways to be left unchecked, and outrage from across the fan base is not going to help in this situation. In my opinion, that sort of outrage is what generally leads to knee-jerk reactions where proper, thorough fact gathering and critical thinking is not utilized.
To address your “1/300 VS 13/120” point, look at it this way: you are selecting your sample sizes. Yes, 10 percent of the team is experiencing this syndrome right now. An apt comparison would NOT be “the entire military”, but instead maybe a unit in the military which saw enormous instances of acute rhabdomyolisis. If we are going to be comparing situations here, we should compare “All of (NCAA/College/D1) football VS All of the military” or “This extreme instance of rhabdomyolisis at Iowa VS A comparatively extreme instance of rhabdomyolisis in a military unit”. Or maybe it would be more appropriate to select “Cases of acute rhabdomyolisis in the Iowa football program since Chris Doyle took control of the S&C program”.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
Show me an example
where another D-1 football team, one with it’s own staff of S&C coaches, that has experienced something of this magnitude. I defy you to come up with one, JUST ONE, example where 10% of a team fell victim to the same condition at the exact same time. This might not be Doyle’s fault, but it is sure as fuck his responsibility.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
I'm still waiting for anyone
to adress LuebkeSwims other point. Which is that these guys push themselves through the threshold of pain every single day. Obviously they, who know their bodies the best, didn’t know that this was too far. How are the coaches to know exactly what the threshold is for each kid with so many variables. Can we please wait and see what the trigger here was before we get so irate.
"If you're easily offended, we thank you for stopping by but ask that you turn your browser elsewhere." -- BHGP Disclaimer
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Jan 27, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
Football is not a self-service activity.
There’s a reason why grown-ups are involved. They’re involved to provide a) leadership and b) direction c) guard rails on behavior. Since I don’t believe this has happened in the last 50 years of D-I football, I do think we might see if there’s anything
If I take your example, and I substitute “concussion” for this renal failure thing, are you suggesting that the athlete should be the last word on whether he goes back in the game?
If 13 players were concussed in one practice, and concussed sufficiently to require hospitalization, would we attribute it to the inability of coaches to “know exactly what the threshold is for each kid with so many variables?”
The tendency of people to confront a resolute argument that they disagree with, in the case of a serious subject, by saying that the people they disagree with are “irate”, or “seething” is silly. Irate is namecalling and imprecations. “Seething” is spitting and losing control of oneself. It is easy to dismiss any argument from a seething irate hating moron. I don’t see anyone making a single compelling case that this event is ho hum, de rigeur, happens everywhere, move along nothing to see here. This is the age of Google: find us a single additional case of 15% of a football team going to the hospital with renal failure after a supervised workout.
Iowa appears not to have dodged a bullet here; they dodged an ugly cluster bomb.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
by Bellanca on Jan 27, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
19 Ore. High School Football players
When I first read about the Iowa players, this was what I expected. However, the Iowa players seem to have something different, but still, interestingly enough, the high creatine levels shown in the Oregon players can lead to kidney damage.
purely speculating, but creatine is used a LOT by guys who work out. wonder if any of the docs checked the Iowa players for high creatine levels?
by WarBuck46410 on Jan 27, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
If it's possible to screen for creatine, they're screening for it.
And they’ve almost certainly screened for everything else as well. If the system works, we’ll never find out what they found from the healthcare side of things. Whether the players themselves or the coaches choose to share that info with us is a different matter.
by The Final Gun on Jan 27, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
A few things with this comment
I apologize, I don’t have enough time to give a thorough and eloquent rebuttal to all of the comments regarding this story, but its an interesting discussion.
The first glaring thing I will note is that this is not renal failure. That, while similar to this situation, is IMO you using a phrase to elicit a more emotional response to this situation, even when the doctors have provided a diagnosis . I will state again, as I want to make it clear, that I think rhabdomyolosis is serious, and it is a shame that this happened. But renal failure is not accurate, IMO.
Secondly, comparing 13 concussions in one practice to rhabdomyolosis is apples to oranges for a number of reasons. Concussions are generally apparent immediately, for 1; at least “serious” ones (concussions are serious business no matter what, but relatively). It took some of these student-athletes 36+ hours to discern the differences between this condition and regular post-exercise soreness, or at least that it was serious enough to seek medical attention. Additionally, while chronic collisions and repeated minor concussions can be contributing factors to a massive concussion that is immediately apparent, it is still essentially a “one-blow” sort of injury. This was not a “one-blow” sort of injury (or as you might word it, n=/=1). How do we know that each of these student athletes wouldn’t have been completely fine if they had only performed 99 repetitions, and it was the 100th repetition that caused the condition? Would you argue that doing 1 too many repetitions is a terrible oversight? What if they had only required an 80 squat workout, and all of the athletes were fine? People seem to be so upset at the number of repetitionsspecifically because they have the advantage of hindsight. No one has raised hell over this workout for the past 10 years, because there hasn’t been a problem for the past 10 years. Clearly, there were other factors involved, and in the future the S&C staff will be more careful to account for these things. My third point with your comment is that its extremely unlikely that 13 concussions would occur in one practice, as whatever activity that was causing these concussions would be ended after (x) number of concussions became apparent. Again, had the S&C staff known that this workout would result in rhabdomyolosis, they would have ended the workout! The staff was not aware that they were causing damage to these athletes at the time. But they didn’t have the benefit of hindsight that the rest of us do, as there is a 24-48 hour window for this situation to become apparent. Concussions are generally apparent immediately, depending upon the grade of concussion of course.
I guess the additional point that I’m going to present here is this: If this workout had been designed and instituted in a completely identical manner, but only to one athlete (say, for argument, even a swimmer or diver that wouldn’t make headlines, but I think another football athlete would make for a better point), and this student-athlete was admitted to the hospital with rhabdomyolosis, would there be this level of outrage? Even if the workout were the exact same, and was designed and instituted by the S&C staff as irresponsibly as many fans seem to believe?
I think this would be written off as a miscalculation, or an unfortunate mistake. Nothing more. But because there happened to be such a high sample size of athletes doing this workout, THAT is what is triggering the outrage.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 9:46 PM CST up reply actions
I'll clarify..
That because the coaches didn’t realize that they were doing damage, does not mean that they are not at fault, in my opinion. But for a variety of reasons that I’ve already detailed in my other comments, I feel like its unfair to be calling for heads and drawing some of the conclusions that have been drawn here.
This event is punishment in and of itself, and the staff will take steps to correct it, for NUMEROUS reasons.
Weight training is sort of like playing with fire. No matter how experienced you are, sometimes one detail being out of your control can cause a breeze to come up and blow the fire in your face. That doesn’t mean we should quit lighting candles on birthday cakes and sending people to the moon.
(Apologies if that doesn’t make sense, I need to be to work in 12 minutes and don’t have time to re-check it. Take it for what it is)
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
You could be right on my use of the term 'renal failure'.
I use the phrase “renal failure” because that is the description of any condition where the kidneys cease functioning properly, which is obviously imminent in the event the athletes require dialysis, which is why they’re in the hospital. I also use the term the ‘renal failure’ because the surgeon I live with uses it to describe untreated rhabdo. She also describes it as a potentially fatal condition, and an emergency if she is attending physician. Being an SEC fan, she doesn’t know anything about football, of course, but this just means that she has no reason to bear a grudge. She doesn’t know who Ferentz, Barta and Doyle are.
This is another post that discusses my motives for raising concerns (“you using a phrase to elicit a more emotional response to this situation”) and it’s really not worth it to argue what my motives are or have been. It’s also not very interesting. We’ll see what happens. I tend to take offense when people ignore what I write and dive into discussions of what I feel or what my motives are. In rhetoric these would be termed ad hominem discussions, i.e., worthless commentaries on the unknowable, or cheap-shot rejoinders, and since no one can read anyone else’s mind, I tend to be extremely unimpressed. It’s more interesting to discuss issues on the merits, in my view. What I enjoy about this blog vs. most on college football clubs is that mingled with the profane humor is a lot of interesting thought on football, thought that transcends mere fan-ism.
I apologize for the defensiveness and rhetorical aggression. I remain very disturbed by this situation. I am questioning my enthusiasm for a game that puts so much pressure on young men, because I draw the line at blood sports. E.g., I’m an aerobatic pilot but I don’t go to airshows, because the 20 year mortality rate of airshow pilots approaches 100%, and I stopped after watching the second fatality. I think a lot of people here are disturbed. If 13 men suffered heat exhaustion or broken tibias or mild concussions, in a single practice, I would be disturbed and so would a large group of people. This was a much more serious anomaly. If winning requires this level of risk to the athlete, is winning worth it?
I really hope that people who would like to impute from these comments what I think about Iowa football, Kirk Ferentz, or the rain in Spain, will just ignore my comments. I will do a better job of reciprocating.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
So I have finally read up from a number of different new sources about this whole thing
two things stand out. There seems to be an issue of what these 13 kids were doing the weekend and days leading up to the workout that led to all this. Drinking in excess might have been a common link with this group. Well, excess is a very elusive term. Let’s say drinking—which could mean they were pretty dehydrated. Throw in winter and most people usually are this time of year. Second, this workout has not been performed since 2007, the 6-6 no bowl season. It was used then, some ex-players are suggesting, to get the returning player’s attention. As if to say, “If we want to get back on top we need to work hard. Now 100 squats!”
I could see this being no more complex than an intersection of those two factors. But, I also read that one player has only 40% use of his kidneys (if that’s even how you phrase that). That is a very fucking big deal.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
My wife treats rhabdo regularly.
The phrase 40% kidney functioning doesn’t make a lot of sense in this context according to her.
They’re probably measuring two things in determining kidney health:
Creatinine and something else (a two-letter acronym). Neither one is on a scale of 0-100 with 100 being healthy. There’s a number (in the case of the two-letter measure, the number is “1”) that is considered healthy. People with rhabdo are not at the healthy number.
If you have a .4 and you’re supposed to have a 1, I suppose you might interpret that as your kidney’s are functioning at 40%, but that’s not what it means at all. Someone misunderstood what their medical team is telling them, is probably exaggerating on top of that, and is sharing info.
by The Final Gun on Jan 28, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
I've not done the research to determine whether this workout has been done since '07
but I seem to recall Bulaga saying that he did this workout more recently than ’07.
I also read Gregg Doyel’s report that one athlete has just 40% use of his kidneys and read a similar report from Joe Schad stating that one athlete has lost 20-30% of his kidney use. Now, I’m not sure if this is the same student and a parent got hyperbolic when speaking to Doyel and reported a different number to Schad in the days following, or if these are two separate kids. In either situation, it’s a huge deal and is extremely unfortunate.
The only thing I’ve learned from this mess is that it’s time to take a step back and let the information come out.
by The Mexican't on Jan 29, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
"40% function" quote from Doyel
I think that one will play out to be showing him as a misquoting or uninformed idiot, but we shall see. TFG also had some good notes on the stupid nature of that type of number.
Good luck on a full recovery to all the players either way.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 29, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Bellanca
I think you are a great contributor to the blog, and generally look forward to your comments. My past comment may have been unfair, but I do not have time to look at it again, I composed it while I was in a hurry (similar to this comment).
The use of “kidney failure” reminds me of when I got a phone call from my mom in the middle of the night saying my dad was on his way to the hospital with “congestive heart failure”. When I heard that, the usage of the word immediately brought to mind “his heart stopped”, and essentially he was dead, as opposed to the heart just not being able to pump enough blood to the body. It scared the shit out of me. Congestive heart failure is still a serious condition, but the usage of the word “failure” immediately brings to mind something even more dire. I understand that “kidney failure” may be a generally accurate description, but it elicits a more extreme response from people, and I think you realize that.
Anyhow, let’s all just hope the student-athletes are on the road back to good health (reports are that 2 are on dialysis right now), and that not only the Iowa S&C staff but S&C staffs across the country take note and take actions to help prevent this from happening.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 28, 2011 7:03 AM CST up reply actions
I'm sure at least 10% of a wrestling team SOMEWHERE
has all had the same rash.
by Bryce Carlson on Jan 27, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
That's a joke right? A droll, ironic comparison of pimples with renal failure.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
Irate is namecalling and imprecations.
Bellanca, you missed my point entirely.
I was trying to point out that this sort of fatigue is not unprecedented, in direct response to your assertion “I do not believe that this sort of thing happens commonly at other programs.” Up until a couple days ago, it had NEVER happened at Iowa. That isn’t to say that it isn’t a terrifying and serious issue that it did happen, just that it’s not entirely unheard of (see the link about the Oregon high school kids, there are several other occurrences cited in there)
My main issue, though, is that with every arrest or court date or transfer, the “Ferentz is CEO, he needs to be held accountable” meme resurfaces and several posters, yourself included, tries their damnedest to wedge the latest activity into that narrative.
Tell me then, what is the exact process that led to this, and how can it be improved upon? What actually went wrong?
The entire NCAA would like to know, seeing as 19 college football players have died as the result of strenuous offseason workouts in the last decade.
Brunettes not fighter jets
Wow, that's pretty embarrassing.
I take it you find my opinions annoying, but that’s why they can be ignored. If you don’t think Ferentz is responsible for his $81mm business, fine, kick the dog, pop a top, and ignore me. Your reductions of the things I do say about leadership and responsibility either prove I’m an idiot, or demonstrate an inability to understand what I’m saying. Clearly I’m not saying, “Ah, what the hell” and thus perhaps that means I’m on the wrong side of this argument.
And I’m not saying that 10 D-I deaths in 10 years at 10 schools from a) sickle; b) heart defects; and c) in one case, asthma, is somehow the same as 13 men going to the hospital at the same time at one school for renal failure.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
Asshole, idiot, kick the dog. U IRATE?
Firstly, it’s a citation. 19 dead. Did a google search to find how many, that was the article that came up. I didn’t even read the article until after I’d linked it. I don’t agree with Dennis Dodd’s conclusions for the EXACT SAME REASON I don’t agree with yours.
We see time and time again with this program a love of process, and when things go wrong, it’s always defended with a recitation of process. More emphasis on executive accountability for outcomes, and less fetishistic devotion to "process", would eliminate some of the more disturbing characteristics of this program.
Dennis Dodd : Killing Season :: Bellanca : love of process. You don’t like bureaucracy. We get it. Stop trying to fit every single thing that happens in the football program into the narrative. Kirk Ferentz didn’t rape that girl (allegedly), he didn’t smoke/snort those drugs, he didn’t overwork those kids. Every person that did is off the team, and I’d be willing to bet there will be repercussions for whoever let this happen if someone can actually be held accountable, and if not, then they’ll try to educate kids better on what constitutes a proper workout.
Rabdomyolysis, contrary to your repeated boldface assertions, is not renal failure. In extreme cases, or if left untreated, Rabdomyolysis can lead to renal failure, and many cases of renal failure can be attributed to extreme or untreated rabdomyolysis (which in turn is most often caused by crushing trauma). The treatment for Rabdomyolysis is an IV of water and observation. I doubt any of these 13 required any more than that. Rabdomyolysis is what happens when muscles are overworked. It is an extreme case of what happens every time a muscle contracts, and the process that leads to rab. is the same process that leads to increased muscle strength and size. When the muscle tissue breaks down, constituents of muscle tissue are released into the blood stream (uric acid, potassium and myoglobin are the ones that can damage the kidney). Then it is rebuilt by the body, leading to better muscle tone and strength. That isn’t to say it isn’t a risky condition, but rather that you may be reacting to a misapprehension of what the condition actually is. It’s no more renal failure than eating a pound of sugar is diabetes.
I would like to propose a third option to the “either I’m an idiot for having these opinions, or you’re an idiot because you can’t understand my smartness.” We both know you’re not an idiot per se, you have such great grammar and reasoning skills, and use big words. You can even count “false rhetorical choices.” Good for you. The third option is that you are incorrect. It’s okay, I still love you (no ad homo). You repeatedly have made the same claims about the Iowa AD and football organization without providing one iota of evidence to back them up. You’ve been affirming the consequent for over three years now, and taking every single mishap involving 18-21 year-olds as another premise proving the foregone conclusion of some institutional problem wherein the head of that institution needs to be held accountable for not preventing it. You don’t know thing one about the discussions that happen in the AD, or the coaches’ offices, how process-oriented they are, what steps they’ve taken when these scandals happen, and most importantly… you have no idea whatsoever what KF & co. feel about these things. You automatically assume that because the public face put forth is calm and detached that KF doesn’t need a hug from his wife every time something like this happens to keep from crying. You have imparted this “faceless bureaucracy” tripe onto the people that constitute it, assuming that they are amoral and conscienceless because they report addressing the issues in the only way they can, and don’t bawl or genuflect when they say “we feel sorry that this occurred” to the throng of local reporters. It’s annoying, yes. If the Iowa football program and AD is as amoral as you claim they are, then we have problems. Concurrently, we have problems.
FWIW, I’ll gladly grant that the U of I AD PR department leaves a lot to be desired.
I apologize that my prior posts didn’t merit your consideration because of perceived logical or rhetorical errors. It’s hard to convincingly call bullshit on something when you’re in the middle of technical training. But it seems to me that you just don’t like Ferentz for whatever reason. That or you are being pretentious and want to display how astute you are for having some epiphany however many months ago about what the REAL problem is with the Iowa football program, and will take any and every opportunity to reiterate that conclusion, using the scandal du jour as another conclusion to prove the premise.
Scientists find empirical evidence to back up their claims. Total assholes (educated or no) build airplanes out of bamboo.
Brunettes not fighter jets
While it doesn't mitigate the seriousness of the situation at Iowa at all, for the sake of accuracy
some of the “sickle” deaths in the last 10 years are from this condition, which can be aggravated by sickle.
The other sickle deaths are because of the deformation of the red blood cells (and that’s why athletes are screened for it nowadays).
by The Final Gun on Jan 27, 2011 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
I think I get to eight (8) false rhetorical choices here. Cool.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
I am just glad the kids are alright
The competition in the wieght room is a good thing for a team. These guys have to get after it and have a “tough” mindset and the coaches aren’t going to inhibit that. If the media would have been this scrupulous when Gable was pushing his guys to the “wall” and then through it he would have been inprisoned for gross negligence. It seems like in Iowa their isn’t much else to report on so this takes the spotlight. Due you think this would even make a blip on the radar in LA? No, so TWWL wouldn’t have picked.this up. the way Barta handles the press is pathetic, fire him if anybody.
"I don't believe in quotes" - Karl Klug
On the contrary, in LA or NYC it would be on the front page of the news section, and not even in the sports section.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
I doubt it
I live in Boston and I used to live next to BC, a bunch of freshman football players got drunk, ran a car into the T (train), fled, got arrested eventually for various things and it didn’t even make the Boston Globe Sports page. They got suspended but it wasn’t national news on ESPN.
"I don't believe in quotes" - Karl Klug
And how does that relate to a systematic (by design) failure of adult coaching supervision?
If you don’t see the difference between kids running amok, as they do everywhere, and a supervised weight session putting 13 in the hospital, no need to reply.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
This story is now the number one story in the summary at ESPN/NCAAFB.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
Of course it is...
because it’s one thing when a 19 year old has a brain fart. When a major D-1 college football program has one, it sends shivers.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
And it's the offseason.
And we are now being considered a perennial powerhouse. Same story at a different time or at a less significant school is not nearly as high on the food chain
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
welcome to the big time
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Niles Kinnick and the Ironmen are all rolling in their graves
Does anyone think coach Anderson cried over a player with a little blood in their urine. They need to man up and grow a pair, this is football, not soccer, we are talking about and no pain combined with hospitalization, no gain!
"You’re talking about things that are real. That’s real. In those other dual meets, it wasn’t real, but now it’s real." ~ Tom Brands regarding the Iowa State dual.
Niles? Let me guess: You work for Topps?
/kidding
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
Sad thing is
if someone from CF came over here and read this there would probably be a post over there that read “SUCKEYE FANS THINK HOSPITALIZED PLAYERS ARE PUSSIES!!”
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Jan 27, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
If BHGP ever
stopped to consider the sensitivities of cyclone fanatics then they should change the name of this place to Pussy Central. (by the way, I own that URL and am willing to sell it for a reasonable price)
"You’re talking about things that are real. That’s real. In those other dual meets, it wasn’t real, but now it’s real." ~ Tom Brands regarding the Iowa State dual.
Is that site a competitor of LOLCats?
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
WWCFD is the guiding principle behind everything I write.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Competition is good
but Iowa’s weight training projects itself as being somewhat scientifically based. Not just a bunch of meatheads throwing weight around. If this is really the case, then the S&C staff should have a tighter control on weight-room behavior and they absolutely should inhibit overzealous lifting that could lead to injury. Afterall, this result doesn’t do anything positive for the physical condition of these players, why would Doyle or anyone else want to risk a trip to the hospital when they can just say there will be x minutes between sets and you will do x weight.
Science is great and all
but occasionally you throw ball-busters in there. Science isn’t infallible, and it doesn’t do much to account for the mental side. Again, the workout design is not the problem, timing is. Don’t get me wrong, it certainly doesn’t excuse Doyle, as he should have known better than to throw this session at them right now.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
I don't disagree, but to me weight training has a high potential for injury
if your aren’t careful. It is real easy to get negative effects with weight lifting if you don’t know what you are doing. To me, the mental test could come with the conditioning aspects a little more.
Yes
but as I said in other threads, this type of workout is not uncommon. We did something similar with the football guys at UNI. The thing is, we did it right before spring break, when they had been lifting for ~2 months, and not right when they got back from winter break. That is honestly the only thing about this that I can’t wrap my head around. Doyle should really know better.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Weight training, especially at a D1 level
requires pushing your body to the limits consistently. The S&C staff knows this, and I would wager quite a bit of money that they know what they are doing more than anyone who is questioning their methods. Designing effective and safe S&C programs, especially one as individualized as Iowa’s, makes it extremely difficult to toe the line. Especially when these individualized workouts need to take into account not only each player’s limits and weaknesses, but inconsistencies in hydration (not only as a result of drinking too little, but also supplements, sickness, and even maybe being hungover or something along those lines), and countless other factors that we would never consider without having been in that position.
Additionally, it would be extremely difficult to know where an athletes body would be at after a ~monthlong break, hanging out at home. Was the athlete exercising vigorously? Running/light exercise? Laying on the couch and relaxing the entire break? Are their bodies accustomed to these workouts? Some of these guys have never hit it this hard before. Some of the true freshmen listed in this have experienced A) High School, B) Summer workouts, then C) In-season workouts, which are generally not going to be as strenuous. Then they took an entire month “off”. Their bodies are not accustomed to this sort of workout, because they personally have never really experienced it. On the other hand, some of these players have been in the program for 4 years. What I think is being missed here (and I don’t want to sound like I am minimizing the idea that student athletes are being hospitalized) that ONLY 13 players were hospitalized. If this workout was so egregiously flawed, wouldn’t there have been even more widespread occurrences? ~10% of the roster is nothing to ignore, as clearly these players were pushed too far, but I think calling for coach’s heads is out of line. I believe that this is a miscalculation that didn’t quite take into account all of the necessary factors.
In my mind, all of this comes back to how difficult it is to toe the line between “pushing your body to the limit” and “going too far”. Iowa football prides itself on working themselves to be in a position better than their opponents. If you’ve ever been involved in a serious training regimen, you realize that its not easy to tell when you’ve gone “too far” and “not far enough”; its like teaching kids to understand the difference between “pain” and “injury”. Sometimes your body tells you to stop, but you have to train yourself to continue past that threshold in order to reach levels that you couldn’t reach otherwise. These players were not prepared to handle the full workout, but pushed themselves beyond their comfort threshold, and did not realize that they had taken it too far.
As a final note, I only recently found out that allegedly the S&C staff was not well represented in the weight room during this workout, and apparently peer pressure between players may have led to this overtraining. That, in my opinion, is the truly glaring problem with this situation if it is true.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 9:31 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
I'm not making excuses for this episode. There have been too many excuses offered by Iowa lately.
If a Marine DI sent 13 recruits to the Parris infirmary with this problem, he’d be up on charges at worst and disciplined severely at best. And the Marines, ostensibly, have a more important objective function than winning football games.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
I have no argument with anything you say here
I’m not trying to offer excuses, even if they do come off that way, as much as I’m trying to offer a different perspective.
These coaches are trusted with the well-being and safety of these student-athletes, and it is terrible that these student-athletes had to experience this. It is terrible that the trust has been undermined.
I understand your comparison to the Marine DI, but does a drill instructor design his own programs? Do drill instructors deal with groups of individuals who can have up to 4 years variance in their training experience? I think your analogy is a good point, but not entirely comparable.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
No, he doesn't design his own. He's responsible for the safe, successful execution of those programs.
Here, the situation is worse, because the coaches design and execute the programs.
Transfer the metaphor to your run-of-the-mill surface warfare vessel. If a captain had 13 sailors admitted to the infirmary with a life-threatening illness caused by deliberate overwork, that captain is relieved and his career is probably over. Same with the supervising subordinate. I think that this culture of accountability is a healthy one, particularly for the individuals who are subject to their officers’ authority.
I generally dislike military metaphors in the context of sports, but the point I’m trying to make is that more accountability, and measurement of outputs, would serve Iowa well. My opinion — it’s just an opinion — is that Iowa is way, way too far in its management culture in the direction of bureaucratic process worship.
I am not suggesting anyone be fired, incidentally, because the only objective fact I am familiar with is that at least 13 men broke down here.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
I will never allow the military's command and discipline structure to be my exemplar
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Ah.
I see you’re familiar with the Sergeant McKeon story? Perhaps this will all lead Hayden to show up like Chesty Puller at the court martial/press conference?
"As long as he behaves himself in this town, I ain't got no, ah...jurisdiction." - Link Appleyard, NCAA Compliance Officer
by ReadingRambler on Jan 27, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
When my Uncle was in Boot Camp
his unit was ordered to face the water and “forward, march” while wearing full field gear. 2 guys drowned. Others were severly disciplined for turning back before ordered to do so.
Gotta love that late 50’s mind set.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
With weight training
doing something intelligently is often more important than doing it dumb but heavier. There is no reason to push guys to the limit the first day back from a break and if, as you say, there are all those unknowns about individual physical shape, then why not err on the side of caution for the first week until you get a better picture of where everyone is, physically? As I said, what good does this outcome do the players’ strength progression? None. People just need to be a little smarter and there is no reason to let a meat-head mentality run a D1 S&C program.
I truly don't feel like this workout is a result of a "meat-head mentality"
In my opinion, this is akin to Monday Morning Quarterbacking, second guessing a 4th down call. Its easy to say now that the S&C coaches went too far, knowing the outcome. But as I’ve said, I believe this is an extremely hard line to toe.
The perception that there is a meat-head approach to S&C, especially at Iowa, is unfair. There is a method to everything they design. I know S&C coaches at D1 schools, guys who have trained world class level Olympic lifters. I believe that Doyle is more well-renowned than these coaches, one references Doyle all the time. There is logic behind every part of their program, and balancing rest/recovery with muscular growth is a huge part of these programs. It’s not just roided out guys standing over a bench yelling “DO MORE, PUSSY!”, these programs have become extremely advanced.
Again, clearly something was not done correctly. I will not argue that. I guess I’m just offering up a potential perspective from the other side, revolving around “How far is too far, when my job (and our program’s mentality) is to push ~130 athletes to the brink of ‘too far’ simultaneously?” It is not clearly black-and-white at the time you are designing the program, or doing the workout, or even for days afterward.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
I understand your point
but I also have talked to some people with 30+ years in sports medicine and strength training who look at this and shake their heads. Doyle does a good job, but Doyle isn’t god and he probably needs to make sure that there is tighter control on the way guys are lifting. Iowa’s S&C group always likes to put out there that they approach strength training from a very scientific perspective. This situation sounds like it could have used some of that.
Doctors think other doctors are idiots all the time
The people who are truly idiots are everybody at large for thinking we understand more than we do about our bodies and the correct or effective ways to treat them.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Haha
There is an actual scientific understanding of the most effective ways to train athletes for sports like football. I look at this situation and ask, “Why fly so close to the sun Icarus?” Why push so hard when you don’t know where guys are at physically? What is the need for 100 squats?
Well, all I can say is,
You can bet your ass they’re not doing 100 squats at 50% of max lift in 20 mins. or less today.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
You hope...
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Actually...
I wouldn’t be surprised to see guys doing the 100 squats in a small time (half an hour to an hour) in the future.
I just doubt they’ll be made to do the sled work for another half hour afterward. And they’ll probably be forced to do more hydration before, during, and after.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Jan 29, 2011 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
Scientific understanding
that is the biggest belly laugher here.
Not to get all big-picture and derail other arguments, but we only truly understand a small portion of anything, and it’s only our latest understanding before it is completely upheaved by future discoveries that will also again be proven to be untrue and thought of as primitive.
Not even 100 years ago bloodletting was good science. So were lobotomies, etc. We gave up and now again use ECT. And leaches. And we will soon discover that almost all of our current cancer treatments are just as stupid and ineffective as bloodletting was.
We are indeed knowing more about exercise science than we ever have, but to say that we have some sort of understanding of how the body works in total when pushed to high athletic exertion is ludicrous.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
There are just some things we may never truly understand.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
I know. I thought dogs hated black people!
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
Roker in gingerbread face.
Edgy.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
thatsracist.Jif ?
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Jan 29, 2011 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
Because that would take 3 hours.
DUH!
by The Mexican't on Jan 27, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Because Bill Brasky wasn't in town.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Jan 29, 2011 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
There's a problem with that statement
I used work customer complaints for a company that made medical devices. I can’t tell you the number of times that either 1) I talked to a doctor who had a problem with one of our devices who TOLD ME that they didn’t follow the instructions because they knew what they were doing or 2) was told by assistants that the doctor didn’t listen to instructions on how to use something new.
Even the most highly trained person doesn’t know / remember everything and needs to refresh their knowledge.
Not to mention having people on their staff who have the knowledge and confidence to step up and say something if a situation looks unusual.
It never gets to be easy.
Why the fuck doesn't it ever get to be easy?
by chitownhawkeye on Jan 27, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Luebke, you're getting this gray area right.
Coming off a season that was lost in the last five minutes of five different games, these guys were pushing each other to prepare for those five minutes. Let’s not kid ourselves that the players don’t do that for each other day-in and day-out, in-season and out-of-season. From what we’ve heard through the grapevine, this is a workout that had been done before, maybe even at the same time of year.
Something was slightly (and probably only slightly) different this time. Maybe a little too much creatine combined with the proximity to the return to workouts. Unfortunately, a couple of those slight differences added up to major consequences that could have been disastrous. By all appearances, those consequences were addressed professionally, and the players will recover. And the program gets another black eye.
I’m not arguing the PR hasn’t been mishandled, but let’s not go stringing up the whole S&C program, or start calling for two or three jobs here. These guys are trying to get back to the top of the Big Ten, and pushed too hard, in the wrong way and at the wrong time. I’m pretty sure the same mistakes won’t be made again.
by Cattlefeeder on Jan 27, 2011 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
Pushing is fine
but here is the problem. What if, as a player, you get to the breaking point physically and your teammates are there pressuring you to go beyond that. You look to the coaches to inject a little sanity and they aren’t saying anything. The people with the power and the knowledge in this circumstance didn’t step up. Everybody in this program should know what their strength progression is and what weight and reps they need to be doing to progress and be safe.
Here's the thing though
and this will be my last post before I leave to finish the application process for my “career”.
There is no bright neon sign that pops up over an athletes head that says “BREAKING POINT!”, or “PROGRESS THRESHOLD PASSED, SITUATION UNSAFE!” The athlete doesn’t know the exact breaking point. The coaches don’t know the exact breaking point. In fact, there are innumerable things that can cause a “breaking point”, and that “breaking point” can vary day-to-day, year-to-year, etc. How do you know when you are reaching your breaking point if you’ve never been there? Especially when your body gives you warnings that you are reaching your “breaking point” when you aren’t there, your body is guessing as well.
I do have more rhymes than Jamaica got mangos.
by LuebkeSwims! on Jan 27, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
You're assuming
You look to the coaches to inject a little sanity and they aren’t saying anything.
You’re assuming it was a coach, (Does anyone know that for sure?) it could have been a Grad-assistant.
I really wish there was more information coming out…
My problem with your logic here is that every team has players who are lazy during offseason breaks...
… and every program has inexperienced freshmen. If that was the reason this happened, most of us would have heard of Rhabdo before yesterday. The doctor said at the presser yesterday he had been at th UIHC for, what, decades? And he had never seen so many admitted at once for rhabdo.
Something else happened here. I don’t know what, because the only one talking is good ol’ Biff.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Not only that, but many programs have even MORE inexperienced freshman that come in in January.
Like Derby last year. None of these guys were that, but yeah.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I'm the new DRUGS
Carry on, fellas.
by Rhabdomyolysis on Jan 27, 2011 9:40 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
You seem to be even harder to obtain
The exclusivity makes you just so damn desirable!
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
I bet everyone's going to be sore with you before too long.
"If there's one thing Nixon is known for, it's class. Now let's cut this turd loose!"
- Richard Nixon's Head, President of Earth
by Bucketochicken on Jan 27, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
C'mon
You can’t match DRUGS, unless Doyle gets charged for keeping a rhabdomyolysis house.
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
I think the only thing that was in the "Hawks on drugs" aftermath...
that is missing from the rhabdo “scandal” is a healthy dose of my self-righteousness.
Sorry, but I’m not giving into my ego this time.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Jan 29, 2011 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
I think the football program is trying to figure out what happened here and they deserve time to do that
then, once they figure that out there are many ways they can explain to the community what happened and why, without directly discussing the health of individual players—consent or no consent.
The REAL PROBLEM is leadership on these issues. The football program cannot manage a crisis. The way they operate is so embarrassingly antiquated I can’t even imagine what the rest of the country says about us to recruits. “Yeah, go to Iowa where they think that Saturday Night Fever soundtrack is pretty sweet and social media is a mixer with Mike Hlas and a reporter from the Daily Iowan.”
I am so fucking tired of everyone concocting wild scenarios and drawing outrageous conclusions because the Athletic Department cannot run a press conference of put out a proper press release.
I know it is a stretch to link these things together, but watching Ferentz all slack jawed that people will run trick plays inside their own 30-yard line when 500 fans on a game thread are predicting it, suggests to me that he has to really get with the times. PR is VITAL. End stop. Get a cell phone. Read an email. Quit being surprised by Facebook posts. And get AHEAD OF THE FUCKING STORY. For once.
And then get your S&C program under control and make some apologies for potentially ruining some careers.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
Renal failure?
How about “… ruining some lives.” Stoops, you realize that if one kid failed to report brown urine, we’d be talking desperate measures now.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
Yes, I do.
I’m sorry if that is not clear. But does Iowa not deserve a chance to see exactly what happened here, soup to nuts? Of course they do. I was a Dean of Students and a girl fell off a fire escape during a dorm party. She is paralyzed for life. Getting to the bottom of that took 5 months. Parents were seething and ready to put my school out of business. Lots of angles to be dealt with there. So I certainly understand the pressure that the athletic department might be feeling. Careers are at stake. Confidence in the program is at stake. But most importantly, the lives of young people in your care are at stake.
So, yeah, I get it.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
Agree, all points. But I bet you put that dorm RC on suspension or an extremely tight leash during the five months.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
As I expect to be there case here...there
was lots of blame to go around which revealed a broken system. A system that got more and more slack over the years. A system of checks that got tired and lackadaisical. And of course some individuals who failed to follow protocol for no good reason.
Would it have been easier if the young lady never smoked, and thus needed to go onto the fire escape in the first place? Of course. But we knew young people smoked and would not get in an elevator and go to the smoking area every time they wanted to light up. You want to house young people you take on a very serious responsibility role.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Perhaps so
but there has to be some individual responsibility involved. IMO, that situation and this are not the same. In your example, the students were given a safe place to do what they personally chose to do. In the UI circumstance, they weren’t given much of a choice (although trying to race could be seen that way, I suppose). I think there obviously has to be some sort of reprimand of Doyle, but given his track record I don’t know that you can fire him for this one episode. Tighter leash, absolutely, and anything else you want to throw in there.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Spot on
I’ve spent almost 25 years in a profession that I’ve seen, time and time again – and working in different states and for different organizations – major (and desperately needed) transportation projects get derailed, delayed or cancelled because the project sponsor(s) could not put together an effective public information/involvement program/process.
Now, in some cases, projects are derailed by “professional citizens” (i.e. monkey wrench throwers) who simply want to stir shit because they have other issues (often that have nothing to do with the project in question), but, they know the rules and exactly what buttons to push to throw everything into Shit Hitting The Fan mode.
The reason this happens so much in the public sector probably has more, than anything, to do with the quality (and in many cases, the lack of any being on staff) of PR people that you have. Money talks, bullshit walks, and good PR people and programs cost money that many gov’t agencies either don’t have or are, via their political controllers, unwilling to pay. That’s why you see some of the best PR people working in fields where you can get serious compensation – like being a sports agent, or movie/TV/music star agent, where Image Is Everything.
I think you are completely spot on that Iowa – its not just Ferentz – needs to get with the times and the 24/7 news cycle. Its compounded in the football program because its been glaringly obvious that Kirk hates having to do PR at all; the type of coach he is (like Belichick) I think he’d rather swallow a red hot poker in a not so nice place than talk to the press outside of regularly scheduled events that contain tame reporters and softball questions.
You can get good PR people to come to Iowa City and fix this issue. But its going to cost you a lot of money. Which the AD has in spades, and potentially, they are costing themselves MORE cash in the long-run – via losing recruits because of the rube-ish approach to dealing with PR – than they are keeping by not modernizing the press operation.
As you’ve noted several times this season, a little good press management would have had us believing that the only thing the players ever pee is cute little Lawrence Welk soap bubbles…
"I'm gonna give you assholes a chance. What do you say we play a little Bangkok Rules?" ~ Snake Plissken
by The Bird Cult on Jan 27, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is the one thing that will run Ferentz off faster than losing seasons
I mean, even Barta has to get this, that sooner or later, if you don’t manage these sports versions of “bimbo eruptions” as they are called in politics, that KF will die a death of a thousand cuts and he will be forced out over something that in comparison to the whole is relatively minor.
"I'm gonna give you assholes a chance. What do you say we play a little Bangkok Rules?" ~ Snake Plissken
by The Bird Cult on Jan 27, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
You know...maybe. But that isn't going to happen.
Iowa has a history of poor management of a crisis. It is institutional. They just don’t get it. They think too provincially. I’ve lost confidence in the school when handling complex crises. Well, not even complex crises.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
I think there is a lot of hubris there
They seem to think that ignoring or generally disrespecting the media won’t come back to bite them.
Academics often think others "just don't get it" or rather
others “just don’t have the capacity to get it.” I have always found it surprising that multi-million dollar institutions like a University is run by an academic. I won’t go into it…but in short, the training to be a first rate academic is not very useful to run a complex organization.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
I am an academic and I have no problem seeing this for what it is
It is a problem when your head coach calls reporters mental cases.
Yeah, didn't mean to throw a blanket
but in all my years at high level meetings in academia, I was always shocked by how disconnected to the real issues a colleague could be. In most cases, department chairs (as an example) don’t even want the job. It’s just their turn.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
But as we are seeing in the UC system here
Simply applying MBAs or lawyers to high level positions doesn’t fix the problems either. The UC presidents office has a HUGE staff and a budget of – get this – 60 million a year. Brown wants to cut education funding a billion (he really has no choice, Californians aren’t going to approve the tax increases he wants either. Any governor that signs tax increases is going to be recalled). He could get 1/3 of that by simply eliminating the UC presidents office budget over the next five years. The number of layers of high level management in the UC system is AMAZING. There are a lot of professors that could be funded rather than admins who do… nothing.
What universities need are MBAs that cut costs, not ad admin staff to take care of their friends and cronies.
"I'm gonna give you assholes a chance. What do you say we play a little Bangkok Rules?" ~ Snake Plissken
by The Bird Cult on Jan 27, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
The recall process in CA seriously undermines the ability of your governor's to make hard decisions that are necessary in times of crisis
At least in my opinion.
Maybe so. But taxes here are RIDICULOUS
I pay almost 7 grand a year on a 95K income as a single man. Plus 9.5% sales tax. We have a welfare state here that – well, if we cut back to what the tax base could afford, we’d still be light years ahead of what Mississippi provides its residents in good times (I lived there for 7 years before moving here in 2007).
California has literally invited huge amounts of illegal immigration and the underclass from other states by offering about the closest thing to socialism as you can find in the US.
"I'm gonna give you assholes a chance. What do you say we play a little Bangkok Rules?" ~ Snake Plissken
by The Bird Cult on Jan 27, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
Funny.
I’m in my first year of law school and we just read Saenz.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Completely OT
The UC presidents office also encompasses the California Digital Library. That may not be something you care much about, but they do do something.
by Other Chris on Jan 27, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
No problem
I understand what you are saying and it is a reasonable point. I am still amazed at how fairly reasonable questions get treated in Iowa press conferences, either blown off or condescended to.
I was sad to see Marc Morehouse say that he tried to discuss the potential that supplements might be involved
and “they wouldn’t go there.” I love Morehouse, but listening to a press conference with the Nets—a team no one cares about, even in NJ, reporters drill the fucking shit out of those guys. It’s never a, “Well, they wouldn’t go there.”
Iowa is a different culture when it comes to media.
"I wish you luck with a capital 'F'" - The Real Elvis.
by StoopsMyAss on Jan 27, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Ferentz might get a little more slack for not being there yesterday
if he at least made more of an attempt in the press conferences he does attend
Jobs vs Lives
This is a continuation of something in a previous post that is probably all but dead now that this one is up….
I said that whoever the supervising S&C coach was for that workout should be fired. This was called an overreaction. Here is my response to that.
13 players were hospitalized with a condition that could destroy their kidneys and/or kill them. If some group of workout fanatics has a t-shirt they give to people that push themselves to this point, then it must be a known danger among professional strength and fitness coaches.
Part of the role of the supervising athletic trainers during a workout is to make sure they athletes are working out in a safe manner. That includes not working themselves into the hospital. Hawkeye wrestlers work out like f’n animals but I’ve never heard of one of them coming down with this condition so you must have to push yourself all the way to hell to make it happen.
This wasn’t one guy or even two. This was THIRTEEN. That is either negligence or incompetence on the part of the trainer in charge and neither should be acceptable in what is basically a professional environment. This is not just telling somebody “you screwed up so badly that you need to be dismissed”, this is letting everybody in UI athletics know that player safety is important and will be taken seriously.
What if somebody had died? What if somebody needs dialysis for the rest of their lives? Besides the impact on the lives of the victim(s) this also opens the University up to a huge lawsuit.
Where exactly is your bar for somebody getting fired?
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
What if it turns out to NOT be the workout, but a supplement the kids were taking?
We are still operating on extremely limited information. I know several docs, and whenever I’ve brought up a medical condition with any of them, you’ll get… several answers.
We are operating in an information vacuum. The bigger issue in my mind isn’t the cause, its how the explanation was completely bumblefucked – at least so far.
"I'm gonna give you assholes a chance. What do you say we play a little Bangkok Rules?" ~ Snake Plissken
by The Bird Cult on Jan 27, 2011 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
If it's a supplement
then we can expect to see a number of other D1 football programs experience the same problem as their players do winter workouts. Or maybe this was some secret concoction from the UI Med Labs. Like Gatorade only it can kill you.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
GatorAIDS
"They're not people, James Ingram. They're Jimmy Buffett fans."
by SomeJerkPoster on Jan 27, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
Hypothetical
What if the 13 that were hospitilized were the same 13 out drinking all night. If they didn’t tell their coach; whose fault is that?
"I don't believe in quotes" - Karl Klug
I tend to agree with this...
at least based on the information we have so far (which isn’t a complete picture). If 13 players end up in the hospital as a result of a workout, then someone has failed in a spectacular fashion.
This has not been “blown out of proportion” as some have said. It’s been royally mismanaged from a PR standpoint to fuel speculation.
I don't know what to think
I’ve been doing some study on this, aka reading as many posts as I can find, and it appears that this isn’t an uncommon thing. In fact, it appears the S&C staff knew what it was immediately. I’ve also read that this workout program isn’t new and has been the norm for quite a while.
If Doyle was new, I think he’d already be packing his shit and been out the door. But, he isn’t. In fact he is quite respected and I have read that many former Hawkeyes that are now in the NFL come back to IC to train with Doyle during the off-season. That alone tells me this S&C staff know what they are doing.
Also, since it wasn’t just Freshman or Sophomores I can’t equate it to them just not having really worked out at a D1 level. So, again, I’m at a loss as to what to think.
The only thing I can come to is that either this was a perfect shit-storm that could not have come at a worse time (like ARob getting busted right after DJK), or there HAS to be some kind of supplement involved. And I’m leaning on the latter since it is very common for workout partners to share supplements.
During August two-a-days, there's this "supplement" called
water. Who’s responsible for the athlete’s ingestion of water? The athlete or the coach?
We play tackle football, most of the time.
Both
But since we really don’t know how controlled the environment was can we pin-point (wild speculation) a cause other than the workout? And from what I understand the workout has been an established routine for years.
Maybe I’m wrong but you seem to be seething right now… Why don’t you stick your head out of your office and make somebody drop. It might make you feel better.
You're wrong.
Also, wasting your time with ad hominem speculations.
We play tackle football, most of the time.
And what exactly am I wrong about?
You seething? That’s the way it appears to me and I was trying to be funny with the ‘drop’ comment. Back in my day we used to drop soldiers all the time when we were pissed. Became fun.
Otherwise, everything right now is speculation. All we know for sure is the players worked out Thursday, it was intense (as it has always been) and by Monday they were showing symptoms. That’s it. I’m just speculating and at least acknowledge that enough details are not currently available to form an accurate opinion.
I would say both
but ultimately the staff should be paying attention to the players and resting them if they start showing any dange signs. This isn’t the 1950s’s.
The whole “supplment” thing is dum.
If it’s a new supplement, we should see a rash of atletes with this problem. Iowa is not the only team that busts ass in the weight room.
If its an old supplement, the staff should know about it and educate the players to stay the hell away from it because it can kill you if you work out too hard. Which would be a pretty dumb supplement if you think about it.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
You are assuming players and/or S&C coaches know and understand the current supplements available
That would be completely wrong. Nobody understands what’s out there, not even the guys making them and competing in that business. Supplements are not subject to any regulation, not by FDA or anything at all really. They just grind some shit up, put it in a can, claim it has these great benefits, and hope it does what they say it does. I’m firmly of the belief that 75% of them do nothing good, and a good portion of those do something bad.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
They should know the common ones
and have a good handle on the lesser knowns. Why? BECAUSE IT’S THEIR JOB.
For the illegal steroids and what not, I suspect that Coach Doyle could give a pretty good lecture on them as well. Again, it just goes with the territory. They have to know what they are watching for and how to talk to players about this stuf.
But like I’ve said, if’s its something new, we’ll find out when this problem keeps popping up.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
I want more info
before I start getting all pissed off about how this is a structural problem inside the university or the S&C program and calling for heads. As someone that took creatine for a long time I know that you have to be careful with the stuff. If you take the max dose you had better be drinking water nearly constantly to keep yourself hydrated. I also agree with the point someone was making above. Every time you push yourself it hurts, there is no flashing light that says “BREAKING POINT” “TOO FAR” for the athletes or coaches to observe. From what I have read this workout is by no means new and is used throughout other programs as well. I would not be surprised to find this was a case where some of the guys thought " one scoop is good three must be better" and their bodies couldn’t handle it. Lets get some facts before we go down the road of over reacting and calling for heads…
"If you're easily offended, we thank you for stopping by but ask that you turn your browser elsewhere." -- BHGP Disclaimer
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Jan 27, 2011 10:31 AM CST reply actions
Agreed
It could have easily been legal supplements or a virus that was the catalyst, and we could still find out that only a few players were actually sick and the rest were brought in as a precaution.
Even if we were told it was one of those contributing factors, there would still be questions like, “did the S&C staff know the players were taking too much?”, “did they do enough to inform athletes of the dangers of doing so”, or “did the staff know about an illness”, etc.
The answers to those questions would determine any culpability, and it is always possible the players acted against the staff’s wishes.
Without vastly more information, it is impossible to determine whether something horribly wrong was happening, or something unfortunate but innocent.
by KilometersDavis on Jan 27, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
I remeber the days when Hawkeye Football
was fun and this site was pushing for a Stanzi/ Leman ticket for 2012. Now its all just sad and depressing.
"I don't believe in quotes" - Karl Klug
Marchifornication is just around the corner.
The fun is coming.
by The Mexican't on Jan 27, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
The only reasonable response at this point is
“I don’t have enough information to reach a conclusion.”
And yet nearly everyone (posters here, at other sites, and local and national pundits) seems to be absolutely certain that either something truly nefarious or negligent happened, or it was a freak occurrence that can’t be blamed on anyone.
Even the doctor treating the players said there are hundreds of possible catalysts for the condition, and they don’t know enough yet to say what happened in this case.
As far as I’m concerned, anyone who is certain that people need to be fired/disciplined for the incident, or anyone who is already willing to say there was no negligence at all, is full of shit.
by KilometersDavis on Jan 27, 2011 10:39 AM CST reply actions 11 recs
I love it when people say what I want to
but am unable to due to my lack of writing ability.
"If you're easily offended, we thank you for stopping by but ask that you turn your browser elsewhere." -- BHGP Disclaimer
by SaturdayMorningKegStanzis on Jan 27, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
I’m concerned for the players’ well being but not ready to make a decision at this point beyond the fact that Iowa can’t handle the press worth a damn
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Jan 27, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Count me in on this one.
I spent half my life's earnings on wine, women & song. The other half I wasted.
by therealCatnuts on Jan 27, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
They should put Poggi on the payroll
Clearly, there are many more questions that remain. This certainly wasn’t Iowa’s finest hour from a p.r. standpoint, and if not for Poggi’s presence, the news conference would have been pointless. The big question among many folks is why Ferentz and athletic director Gary Barta weren’t present Wednesday? Schools typically want to get their most recognizable figures in front of the media. – Via Rittenberg on ESPN
I know it has been pounded like pelican whore, but the leadership in this program is bullheaded as shit; it’s going to cost them. If you give a little info and don’t keep everything so damn secret-secret maybe the media would get off their ass. Their stubbornness and desire to fight the media on everything is ridiculous.
"I don't believe in quotes" - Karl Klug
The best thing about Poggi was his awesome line about how he isn't a dr., but doesn't sleep at the Holiday Inn Express.
hahahahaha
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
YES.
I am currently staying at a Holiday Inn Express and I about fell out of the couch when I read that.
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
From my various hotel experiences, a HIE is way better than the La Quinta.
God I fucking hate La Quintas. Once we went on a “romantic” weekend trip and when my husband pulled into a La Quinta I started crying, no joke.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
Stanzi didn't even exist then, or something.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
Still better than HoJo's
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
More alcohol?
More maple syrup?
More alcohol and maple syrup?
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Jan 29, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions
unrequited? Slow down there, cowboy.
And there’s only one college QB in mai heart.
by stanzi's ex-girlfriend on Jan 27, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Some of the newer La Quintas are actually pretty good.
But those are few and FAR between.
The priority club program for Holiday Inn, is awesome though. I’ve racked up well over 1/2 million points in the last 18 months. I’m banking them all to eventually pay for an all expense paid trip to… wherever.
Going, going, going, going, going, going, going, going.... Alright, I'll stop for now.
by EnergizerHawk on Jan 27, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
A question for those who know more about rhabdo than I:
I know that serious kidney damage can prevent people from being able to use anti-inflammatories in the future. Could heavy use of ibuprofen or aleve push somebodies kidneys over the edge from close to rhabdo into full rhabdo? Just spitballing, but not sure if popping a lot of pain pills over the weekend to deal with soreness could have aggravated the situation.
I don't think ibuprofen would change the muscle damage situation
I think the difference would be in how involved the kidneys become.
Yes, your speculation is confirmed. The use of Ibuprofen could definitely be a contributing factor.
My wife is a physician with a lot of experience managing rhabdo.
by The Final Gun on Jan 27, 2011 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
Two things
I just did a Google news search for “rhabdomyolysis athletes” and turned up two interesting articles:
1) From the Hartford Courant, 1971: “PARRIS ISLAND, S.C. (UPI) —A Marine drill instructor was fined $100 and relieved of all training responsibilities Tuesday for forcing a group of recruits to-do so many push-ups that they were sent to a hospital with kidnev-ailments.” Only a preview is available on the HC website, so I don’t know the full details, but it appears even at a hard-ass place like Parris Island there are consequences for pushing people too hard.
2) From the AP: “New Mexico Football Player Dies of Cardiac Arrest”:
“A defensive lineman who collapsed while running 850 during a football workout has died of cardiac arrest after developing a rare muscular disease. Chris Cooper, a 270 lb. 6’1” senior from Houston, died at 4:59 Thursday at University Hospital of complications from rhabdomyolysis…"
Look, I agree that we don’t know the full details. It could have been something else — drinking, supplements, who knows — but can we all agree that the stakes are very high here? We shouldn’t write this off as “just pushing yourself to the extreme.” This is literally life and death. If it turns out that the rhabdomyolysis was primarily the result of the workouts, then, yes, there should be consequences for the people responsible.
I don’t even care about the PR — this is more serious than PR of a football program — but from that standpoint, know that this does not make us look “tough” or “strong”, it makes us look “incompetent” and “dangerous.” If you were a parent of an 18 year-old, would you want to send your kid to play here?
by Horace E. Cow on Jan 27, 2011 10:58 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed that the stakes are very high
and anyone who downplays those stakes doesn’t understand just how touchy and terrible kidney conditions can be. And no, I wouldn’t want to send my kid to Iowa at this point if I had one.
"I shoot, I score. He shoots, I score." - Dan Gable
by ClaybornSmash on Jan 27, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
I have a boy
and the more I think about it the more I tend to agree. I wish a defense of leadership could be made here, but sadly I think some heads should roll. The more I read about how the condition develops the more I think these guys were letting something horrible occur.
"I don't believe in quotes" - Karl Klug
I guess I would
hope that people will learn from this and revise some things (I don’t have any reason to believe they won’t). I think the coaches care about the welfare of the players. One nice thing about this is it seems that the coaches were pretty responsive when it was clear something was wrong and they have been talking to the people that matter the most, the parents of the affected players.
Couple thoughts
1) I’m in the media biz — though no longer a beat reporter — and the thing that amazes me is how often institutions would think that “No comment” or “No further comments” would be good enough? Then again, this is Iowa City, so BJs and backpats are the rule for many (but not all) beat reporters.
I would have admitted more, much more. In fact, I would have buried reporters in avalanche of data. And I would have continually changed the story under the guise of “as our knowledge of events improve.” Stonewalling looks so bad it’s almost better to admit negligence/incompetence than it is to appear indifferent with a “no comment.”
2) As tough as this workout sounds, I find myself wondering how much of it I could do.
3) And THIS JUST IN!!! Iowa has hired a new SID. Ahem …
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Jan 27, 2011 11:15 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I liked their ambassador better
Tarig Aziz? His entire mannerism just screamed “OK, Saddam wants me to say this so I gotta say it but, we are going to get our asses kicked and yes I feel like a dope for having to say it” whenever he made statements.
"If you need a rah-rah speech at halftime, you’re playing the wrong sport." - Pat Angerer
I found this interesting
It appears that the key factor in many cases is an abrupt increase in the intensity of exercise.
I’ve read that this was a normal workout routine, but maybe it was geared up quicker than normal?
I found the above HERE
I'm sure that was it
I guarantee they’ve done either this same workout or something similar every year. They just didn’t do it right after winter break.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
According to some reports
that might not be the case. It seems as if this particular workout has been used more as a “punishment”/motivation regime after disappointing seasons, at least according to this article. One key part that you note, they didn’t do after an extended break from physical activity, and that, coupled with other factors, could be the key aspect.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
Ridiculousness...
I’m getting pretty goddamn tired of the people who are starting to call this a “scandal”. Jim Rome just tore Iowa a new asshole on his ESPN show earlier..
People are acting like this thing is akin to abuse and torture..WTF??
Do people even understand that many of our nation’s military recruits end up getting rhabdo at some point during boot camp? Rhabdo is caused by physical overexertion during hard, physical exercise.
People are starting to think that Chris Doyle was in the damn weight room wearing a fucking S&M outfit with a whip beating the fuck out the players.
Christ…get some fucking perspective people…..
by FlyingDutchman1 on Jan 27, 2011 4:34 PM CST reply actions
THIS
A week ago I’d never heard of rhabdo. Now that I’ve heard the symptoms, I’m pretty sure I’ve had a mild case of this myself. In fact I’d be willing to bet that a lot of college athletes have had this and simply didn’t know it or didn’t report it. I can’t even count the number of times it hurt to walk the day after a hard weight workout. Some people on here apparently have no idea the kind of effort it takes to compete in college athletics. Training hard is painful, people. Get over it. All the people on here criticizing Doyle are being ridiculously hypocritical. You love the guy when his strength program creates phenomenal athletes but when you find out those athletes have to work hard and suffer through some seriously grueling workouts you start screaming for heads. And to all the “concerned parents” saying crap like “I wouldn’t send my kid to Iowa right now.” Fine. You can send your kid somewhere else. But you should know that working this hard is an every day thing at most division I schools.
Now before anyone bites my head off. I am not saying they can or should run the players into the ground in every practice. I just don’t think this is a big deal, and it’s being blown way out of proportion by a bunch of people who frankly don’t have a clue what it’s like to train at that level. I think this was a workout that’s hard but nothing out of the ordinary. The fact that a lot of players had adverse reactions to it is troubling, but blaming the athletic dept at this point is ridiculous. I still think that crappy over the counter supplements are probably involved in this incident, but this is probably not something we’ll find out due to privacy laws. Apart from finding out what these guys are taking on their own and putting a stop to it, the only thing I hope they change from this incident is their clusterfuck way of handling the press. Beyond that nothing needs to happen. No heads need to roll for this.
by HawkeyeInExile on Jan 27, 2011 7:33 PM CST up reply actions
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