Todd Lickliter And Gary Barta Meeting This Morning. Oh Boy
by Adam Jacobi on Mar 15, 2010 7:00 AM CDT
in Iowa Hawkeyes Basketball
82 comments
Well, folks, if it's going to happen at all, then as they say, IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. As KCRG first reported, Todd Lickliter and Gary Barta are meeting this morning. We're sure that'll be a barrel of laughs.
Frankly, we think the biggest factor here is this past weekend's switch to Daylight Savings Time. That, combined with the fact that they're both a time zone away from Iowa City, works against Lickliter; they're both basically two hours behind their regular sleep schedule, which means they'll both be miserably under-rested for the meeting. And if there's one thing Todd Lickliter reminds us of, it's a guy who gets at least 9 hours of sleep a night. Right.
Okay, that entire last paragraph is bullshit; Barta's got a plan one way or another, and whether he gets up in time for a continental breakfast* or whatever isn't going to change that. If Lickliter's going to be fired, it's going to happen very, very soon. Well, unless Barta decides to keep him, then a month later Lick keys his car. You know what we mean though.
Frankly, we're going to be content no matter how today winds up, mainly because we see the merits of all plausible outcomes. If Barta fires Lickliter, it's basically out of necessity; the team didn't seem to play hard, the talent isn't terribly evident, and most importantly, the fan base has deserted the team completely. There's no money to be made in an empty arena.
Likewise, if Lickliter decides the stress of fielding a basement-feeder team year after year isn't enough to keep him in coaching, and he resigns, that's okay too. It's totally plausible that Lickliter announces a resignation with a settlement, and that Barta announces that he'd have let Lickliter come back if he wanted it. Now, whether Barta means that won't ever come out, of course, but the job instantly becomes that much more appealing to prospective coaches if Barta at least gives the appearance of being that coach-friendly.
And then lastly, though some of us refuse to believe it, there remains the chance that Lickliter's given one more year. It's entirely contingent upon the team, as a whole, throwing their support behind Lickliter and committing to come back. Any hesitancy on anybody's part (maybe including Andrew Brommer, although those are not good hands in which to put a man's career, or a baby, or a basketball) to back Lick's return is probably all Barta needs to hear to drop the axe.
And yet, if Lickliter gets that vote of support from his entire team, he's facing the first positive offseason in his entire tenure at Iowa. We don't actually know how this team will operate when it's not in damage control, after all, and when Lickliter can just coach kids. It's totally possible that he can have them in the NCAAs within two years, even if it's as a 10 seed or something. Of course, it's also possible that a different coach can do the exact same thing by then, but we're just saying: the talent's possibly there for a quick resurgence within the next few years. It just has to stay there. As for whether Barta has to fire him to save his own ass, well, name the last major college athletic director who was fired because he hired a basketball coach who didn't win enough right away. Exactly.
We don't know how this thing ends yet. We honestly don't. We've gone to bed thinking a firing's coming, and we've woken up thinking Lick stays, and we've changed our mind again 20 times. There is an empty arena in Iowa City right now, and it's scarcely different when the Hawkeyes actually play. Maybe Carver doesn't get filled back up without a coaching change. Or maybe, regardless of who's on the sidelines, winning is the only thing that'll bring fans back, whether it's Lickliter or somebody else tasked to do it. We'll know soon enough.
*Wait a second. It just occurred to use that "continental," in this instance, probably has nothing to do with a continent on earth, and more to do with the style of food (wheats and fruits) keeping you, y'know, continent. Eeeewwwww.
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I too, am content with whatever outcome today may bring in all of this.
But I kinda hope Lickliter is retained, if only for the sheer epicness of the meltdown that will occur among the poopflinging troglodytes on the messageboards and elsewhere. And if (when) that happens, I hope we see a 20-win Iowa team next year (with no transfers, natch). I wish this to happen for two main reasons (in order): 1. spite, and 2. because that would be awesome.
"Do a flip!" - Bender B. Rodriguez
That would be cool...
even if I am in the category of the troglodytes.
Honestly, I don’t really want Lick gone, but I am glad that something will happen today.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
You're not.
This place (and its denizens) doesn’t even begin to compare.
"Do a flip!" - Bender B. Rodriguez
by Bucketochicken on Mar 15, 2010 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, now I can see Barta letting Lickliter
go because Iowa (and by Iowa, I mean Barta, Lickliter and the basketball program) is in a defensive posture right now. Which means, Lickliter is on such flimsy ground he is unlikely to be able to land a big recruit for next year—and as much as I am delighted by the incoming class we are STILL players away. That would put us back to doe.
So, Barta says, can I handle the money? Smarter people than me say yes. So check. Then he asks, can I handle the fall out? Since TL at this point is almost a dead man walking you are going to lose players this year or next year if you dump him then. So check. Can I get someone juicy to come in and rebuild yet again? Big question mark.
If that third one seems feasible, then I could see Barta dumping Lickliter. What I cannot see is Lickliter resigning. If he does, then I am VERY glad we dumped him. Cause it says a lot about him (to me).
The dead man walking thing never ends well.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
The only clear thing
in this whole mess is that Lick isn’t going to resign. I think he’s gone. This is based mainly on the complete lack of statements from the U supporting him. Barta may want to give him another year but we all know that the choice isn’t his alone to make.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
"Lickliter is on such flimsy ground he is unlikely to be able to land a big recruit for next year"
Of course, that is neither Lickliter nor Barta’s fault.
Even a kid who grew up wanting to be a Hawkeye must reconsider whether or not they want to deal with such a fickle and petty fanbase as ours.
Brunettes not fighter jets
Fickle and petty?
Iowa Basketball attendance has been top 25 in the nation since about 1980 until last year, when they still averaged over 10k. And that is with a good, sometimes very good, but never great team. Now, after one too many losing seasons, the worst recession in about 60 years, and reports of fans upset over game times, attendance has finally hit the crapper.
Hardly fickle.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
Come on now...
Again, you win ten games in your third year with your watermark being 15 wins (and decreasing conference wins every season) with the fans leaving the program in droves, that’s far from petty and or fickle. That’s just not accepting the type of basketball being played.
If we consistently won 18-20 games and were incessantly bitching about our guard play to the point of annoyance, that’s petty and fickle.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Mar 15, 2010 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Petty and fickle
Complaining about not winning the B10 championship in wrestling by “enough” points…that’s petty and fickle.
The pettiness and fickleness...
only seems more now because of the Internet, and a media that is trying to stir shit (yes, KGAN and KCRG and the Register and the Gazette, I’m looking at all of you). You could argue that the media played a pretty big role in the David ouster.
In this day and age, when universities are asking you to donate money before you even buy a ticket, then people expect results. When budgetary times are dictating furloughs or firings for state and municipal workers, they don’t have much sympathy for a coach who makes about $100k per win.
I think that 50% or so of the “fanbase” probably was not real vocal about getting rid of Lick. Nixon had a phrase for this: the Silent Majority.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
should read "Davis ouster." As in Tom Davis.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, I think it does come down to
number 3 – who Barta is able to bring in. Good point on the recruiting….what HS junior is going to want to commit to a coach who is on ice as thin as Lick is?
He's actually walking directly on water if he stays
the ice melted at Minnesota this year…of all places.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
For good or ill, Recruiting actually wasn't supposed to be a huge deal for next year's team.
Depending on whether or not Lickliter fills Tucker’s scholly with immediate help this off-season, he was only going to have 1-2 open scholarships to play with next year (assuming no other off-season defections, of course — which is a big assumption with this program, I grant you) and based on his results thus far, I feel confident in stating that his odds of landing a “program-changing” recruit with that one open scholly were pretty damn slim, regardless of his job security.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
But it doesn't help
the quality of the recruit you can get with it. Does a solid D1 kid want to throw his lot in with a guy getting dirt thrown on him? Maybe it’s the difference between landing a Kenyon Murray (solid contributor) or a Brig Tubbs (no business in D1).
This program needs guys who can play, whether it’s one scholly available or four.
Sure, but I just rate that as a lower level of importance right now.
If Lickliter’s back and next season is his make or break season (which it almost certainly will be if he’s back), then if he does well enough to stay, he’ll get enough of a commitment from Barta to project an image of stability and boost recruiting (such as it is). If he doesn’t do well enough to stay, then recruiting is back to square one anyway.
I just don’t see next year’s lone recruit being a huge deal in the grand scheme. If Lickliter is back, he’s going to have succeed or fail with what he has on hand next year. If he’s not brought back, then whoever the new coach is will have ample time to decide how to use that scholarship (although if we do have a new coach, the odds of him having multiple scholarships to work with goes up dramatically, since I have to think a few guys are going to depart if Lickliter also departs).
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Addendum to last post:
By which I mean that this team was going to sink or swim for the next few years on the guys already here plus next year’s four incoming recruits.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
One more year
I disagree with the idea that if Barta decides to retain Lickliter, he should be given “one more year”. What exactly would we be looking for in that one year? Certainly it’s too much to expect him to make the NCAA tournament, even with the players he has returning. Improvement? To what degree? It would certainly be easy to improve on a 20 loss season without achieving acceptable results.
What I’ve seen several places is a call to let him return “one more year” because of the incoming class, as well as a decent nucleus of returning players – provided of course there are no transfers, which I don’t think would be the case. However, that incoming class of freshmen isn’t going to make or break you their first year on campus. And let’s say that the team improves next year to around .500 or so, improves their Big 10 standing to 7th or so, what do you do then? You’ve had improvement, albeit moderate improvement. Do you let him go then? You’ve got 4 freshmen you just brought in, and we’d all be saying “Well let’s give them another year to develop – they’re just freshmen, after all.”
No, I don’t think “one more year” should be an option. IMO, you either need to let Lickliter go now, or you commit to him for at least another 2-3 years. It goes back to something I posted on one of the last articles – you don’t bring the guy back because you think he can “improve”. Improving on this year’s disaster should be reasonably easy. You bring him back if you think he’s capable of getting it done in the long term – and if you believe that, I don’t think even his most optimistic supporter thinks it will happen next year.
Yep, Barta will either let him go today
or sign him to a one-year extension. His current contract goes to 2014 which covers this incoming recruiting class. Without some kind of extension he is in a tough bind recruiting for next year. And a one year extension is not exactly a slap on the back for a job well done. It’s a tough deal because Barta has to pay or play with Lickliter. The ultimate soft move is to support him today and say that both sides agreed to put off extension talks until next year
(LIck’s deal calls for a talk of an extension by the end of this year — June 2010 is the end of this year contractually — so they have to addess this at some point.)
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
I don't see an extension
It just doesn’t seem like smart business. I’m in the “one more year” crowd, but I wouldn’t be upset if the guy gets canned. Adding a year to the contract could very well just add to the buyout Lick will get 12 months from now if things don’t turn around.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
The Brewster extension
If it happens (and I agree it has to if he stays; Barta can’t walk out of this morning’s meeting and say “Steady as she goes!”), it’s going to be with a reduced buyout clause and/or some performance-based incentives allowing Iowa to get out for cheap.
Before you respond, let me remind you: Brian Cook called me smug, which makes me the Obama of smugness. I'm basically Smugbama.
by Patrick Vint on Mar 15, 2010 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
The Brewster Extension...
I would bet they don’t advocate that in business school.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
You know what they DO advocate in business school?
Brewster’s Millions
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
And it's not just for next year's recruiting class
Barta needs to show commitment one way or the other for the sake of who will already be on the team. If he soft-pedals this, the media and fans will be constantly talking about having to significantly improve and the “future” of Lickliter, which is exactly the kind of distraction the present and new players don’t need.
Given the way Barta has handled the past few days, it’s a fair question whether that can be avoided at all now.
I think implicit in "one more year"...
…is that it becomes two or three more years if sufficient progress is made next season. What’s sufficient progress? I don’t know if you can say exactly, but like the Supreme Court defining pornography, I think we’ll know it if we see it. I’d certainly expect a winning record and a postseason tourney of some sort. The nonconference games against the UT-San Antonios of the world have to go in the W column. Further, Iowa needs to start winning more than losing conference home games, and get in the 7-9 conference win range. Finally, we need to see consistent effort, and back to back 30-point losses aren’t going to be acceptable.
If these things happen next year, then Iowa should make the tournament in 2012, and Lickliter should be allowed to continue. I’m not comfortable with the idea of firing the guy after three years, unless he truly doesn’t have the backing of his team and player defections would follow if Barta doesn’t act, in which case his hands are tied and he’s making a correct, if difficult, decision.
One thing is for certain, Lickliter will not resigned
It might look like a resignation, but that would be semantics. He very much wants to remain coach – so he’ll either be fired or retained.
I think both are equally plausible.
Just my opinion but....
I think Lick and Barta should pack each others suitcases. Package deal anyone?
by BsblHawk on Mar 15, 2010 9:28 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Not enough cologne?
I give up…just tell us.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
No, I agree....I don't love the guy
but an AD is kind of like a Dean of Students…unless kids are committing suicide you keep that person in place. AD’s just need to hire well and that is the concern with him. Brands was his hire I think and that was brilliant. But he inherited everyone else.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
Over the weekend (?) someone pointed out that Barta inherited Brands, as well.
Brands was hired in the spring (June, maybe?) and Barta came on in August of 2006. Up to this point, Barta’s only hire is TL.
That said, I don’t think he should be fired. Hiring the hottest coach on the market and watching him flame out isn’t necessarily the AD’s fault.
by The Mexican't on Mar 15, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
And he's doing a good job of keeping them around.
It’s partially to Barta’s credit that Kirk hasn’t jumped anywhere else, no? Same with Bluder and (to a lesser extent) Brands.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
by Adam Jacobi on Mar 15, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I think so...
although, I think he is in a proving mode here. Botching this next hire would not be good if other things that usually cost ADs their job pop up (such as money problems, management issues…both of which don’t seems to be an issue at all).
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
by StoopsMyAss on Mar 15, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
The only money problem
will be if he gets lazy on the fundraising side due to the $10 mil operations profit and BTN money. There is also a scenario involving teenage Asian hookers and cocaine… but that’s more of a jNW style scandal.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
Asian hookers do love Armani.
That much is scientific fact.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
by Adam Jacobi on Mar 15, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Aren't we half way there with...
that Iowa helmet popping up in that Girls’ Generation vid?
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe that Barta is doing a great job at keeping Kirk, Brands and Bluder around
He doesn’t get the credit he deserves and that’s truly a shame.
But in the same breath, he needs to be held with some sort of responsibility for the past three years with our men’s basketball program.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Mar 15, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Barta can't make the basketball team win
so I don’t know why exactly he should be “held responsible” for the basketball program. As The Mexican’t said above, he hired the hottest coach on the market (reigning National Coach of the Year). It’s not Barta’s fault that players decided to transfer out and the team started losing which caused attendance to drop.
I have a feeling that if Barta would have been promised a full arena every home game if he rode around the court in a thong on a unicycle juggling flaming bowling balls, he would have done it in a heartbeat.
by HeroPatriotStanzi on Mar 15, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
its not enough to...
Hire the hottest coach or the national coach of the year….I know plenty of people who didn’t care for this hire because of questionable recruiting credentials and a style that likely wouldn’t translate to the big ten….3 years later those people look pretty smart.
by BsblHawk on Mar 15, 2010 11:30 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The recruiting concern was pretty valid.
Style of play seems like more of a personal preference issue. Like it or not, slow it down styles HAVE been effective in the Big Ten, so I don’t think that was really a huge issue. People may not have been crazy about it, but I don’t think there was much reason to think it wouldn’t have worked with better players (which was the crucial issue, of course).
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Not only have they worked...
but they have got some teams to the Final freaking Four. (cough Dick Bennett, cough cough.)
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
And now I know...
what was keeping the fans away from Carver. A lack of quality half-time entertainment, Barta-style!
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree,
Outside of this horrible Men’s Hoops teams the other atheletic programs are thriving. Barta is not to blame for this. This totally falls squarely on the shoulds of Coach Lick!
You will never move forward by looking back....
by By Santo's Grace on Mar 15, 2010 9:39 AM CDT reply actions
Did he or did he not hire this man?
Barta doesn’t deserve to be fired over this, but don’t sit around and think to yourself “Barta never knew what kind of system he ran, or what kind of player he recruited, or how the guy’s personality was.”
Barta needs to shoulder a large chunk of responsibility of how this program got to where it is today because he hired Lickliter.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Mar 15, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Barta Gets Some Blame
but nowhere near enough to merit termination. Lick was a winner before Iowa and I’m willing to bet that Barta’s final call on the hiring was after consulation with various b-ball experts and U officials. And if Lick gets fired today, Barta’s final decision will probably be influenced by a handful of very important people.
Besides, the AD’s job is a lot bigger than just hiring coaches.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
Yeah, but come on
He hired the COTY from a school and system that just produced Thad Matta. That wasn’t exactly an extraordinary gamble of a hire.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
by Adam Jacobi on Mar 15, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree...
I thought it was a great hire. Of course, the roster issues were serious. He wasn’t losing players to the courts, he was losing leading scores to morale issues. That is, other than losing, the greatest indictment against a coach in contemporary college athletics.
I read that a DR reporter (I think it was the DR) spoke with Kelly at their tournament and he wasn’t weeping with guilt for Lickliter’s fate.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
by StoopsMyAss on Mar 15, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Jake Kelly...sorry
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
by StoopsMyAss on Mar 15, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Thad Matta, the one who went to Xavier and showed he could repeat the success from Butler?
No, it wasn’t an extraordinary gamble – I can definitely agree to that. However, I would argue that it’s not just one thing about Lickliter that’s failed, it’s a combination of many factors. His apparent inability to connect with his players. His demeanor. We can go on and on but I think it’s pointless if the guy’s actually fired.
I believe the mistake Barta made was that he shouldn’t have looked at Lickliter like he was Thad Matta, Version 2.0. They are far, far different coaches who happened to have coached at the same small school and run very similar styles of offense.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Mar 15, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
But you don't know that Barta did that.
I just tossed that out as a quick example of thought. You can’t hold it against Barta for lack of due process.
Moreover, what about Lickliter’s tenure at Butler would have led you to believe that players would desert the team at an extraordinary pace? What warning signs were there? Serious question. How is that Barta’s fault for lack of due diligence?
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
by Adam Jacobi on Mar 15, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Great questions, of which I don't have great answers for
I’m grasping at straws if I attempt otherwise. I can relax my stance on Barta due to my inability to answer those questions, but I can’t seem to think of the old addage “The Buck Stops Here.” With all sports in any program, that means the AD. That he, the AD, must be held responsible for any decisions made under his watch is where I was trying (unsuccessfully) to go with my reasonings. Hopefully this clears it up a bit.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Mar 15, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Just Looked At Dochterman's Blog
Meeting laster less than 5 minutes, Lick walked in the other direction from reporters after talking with one before going in. He did not respond when his name was called out by a reporter. Supposedly sullen faces from inside the room.
It’s all speculation, but all I can figure is either
1. Lick was fired
2. Lick was told he could stay but had to fire staff. (Might this prompt a resignation?)
3. Was told (hard one to believe) that Barta hadn’t decided anything and they were going to meet further.
Can’t think of other plausible options and I’m out the door.
Wow...
I was totally prepared for Barta to keep him. It certainly sounds like TL got axed. I wonder if Lick will go down swinging.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
by StoopsMyAss on Mar 15, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Sounds like
the only thing Lick will be swinging is boxes up into the moving truck.
“Sullen faces” is an opinion, but when combined with a short meeting…..
At any rate, I wish him well. He’s a good man and he tried.
How long before Lil’ Lick annouces he is tranferring?
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
If he is in fact out
I think the two points where it all slipped away was how he handled Tucker at the end, and the two blowouts. Both of thos killed the two claims he needed to make…one, that he can keep a roster together and two, that the team was making progress.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
by StoopsMyAss on Mar 15, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
There are two things that got him canned.
And Tucker is not one of them.
1) He won 10 games this year, including the blowouts toward the end.
2) He has made some comments in the last few weeks that didn’t show he knew how to get improvement going. Sure, he said this was a better team than last year. But he also made mildly negative comments about Cougill and Barta in the last few weeks (and maybe more comments I can’t remember), and those could not have helped. Basically, he didn’t have the personality to keep himself or others even slightly cheerful in this horrible season.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
To honest
your kidding yourself if you don’t think Tucker leaving was a big problem for him. A) Tucker was his highest ranked recruit to date; B) Tucker left after the recruiting period, so it killed anychance to replace him for next year with a reasonably top rated recruit; and, C) it showed that Lickliter’s inability to retain quality players from the Alford regime was not isolated.
People have let their animus of Tucker cloud their vision of what building a college program is all about…this isn’t football either where you have tons of players on scholarship. What Lickliter is a prime example of is how delicate a college basketball roster is. Losing a scholarship player is always a problem, no matter the reason. Losing one that at the time was your leading scorer and forced you to play your son…not good.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
Not to mention the fact that it played into the communication problems.
While Tucker was a fuck-up, he seemingly did what was asked of him and got to the point where he was able to dress for games… and still watched his minutes go to John Lickliter, no matter what the game situation was.
Couple that with the fact that some of the current players were tight with Tucker (I think Gatens is/was his roommate), and I think you can further see how his handling of that situation would be frustrating.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Gatens and others...
didn’t really sound or look too bothered by it. I would guess that only some fans (like SMA, with his crush on Tucker) were bothered by it.
Maybe it did tick off some players, but I haven’t seen too much evidence of that.
Even with Tucker, we still lose probably every game we lost.
It seems like everyone except Tucker knew it would be a long road for him to earn his way back to playing time.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I was bothered by it from the standpoint that Tucker was a kid with a drinking problem
he’s not a criminal, he didn’t steal anything, he wasn’t even a drunk on the road. He was literally arrested merely for bing drunk in public. That’s a tailgate in most cases.
He also had a bad semester of grades…and that he clearly got back on top of that impressed me. The kid was stupid for not learning his lessons about alcohol but he was not a blight on the program, he never blamed anyone else for his behavior. He took repsonbility for everything. Shonn Greene had grade problems. Today we learned, I believe, that Barta fired a good coach who was the right man for the job because he could not keep players in the program. Even ones he recruited and were productive in his system.
And I don’t blame him. That a pretty basic thing. Keep you players healthy, involved and committed. He failed. And Tucker was a challenge, but certainly Lickliter could have done better with him…and perhaps others. And we’ll never know this…but I would not be surprised if the players who came in with Tucker didn’t tell Barta that they thought tucker was unfairly or poorly dealt with. At minimum, Barta seemed to hint that more players were leaving if Lickliter stayed.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
WTF did you expect?
didn’t really sound or look too bothered by it. I would guess that only some fans (like SMA, with his crush on Tucker) were bothered by it.
Did you expect him to wear a “FREE TUCKER” undershirt or something? Do you really think he’s going to tell Dochterman during some post-game presser that he thinks Tucker is getting a raw deal?
And this has nothing to do with whether or not Tucker helps us win or lose games — I don’t know if he would or not — but it has everything to do with what other players on the team felt about Tucker’s punishment and whether or not it was being handled fairly.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Do you guys really think it was handled unfairly?
Tucker used up three strikes. Yes they were non-violent strikes, but three nonetheless. He was lucky to have even a chance to work back into some minutes.
When they didn’t come within a month, he transferred out.
Also, there are people on this board (and yes, you can’t believe everything you read/hear on the Internet) that were calling him a prima dona even in high school.
Why blame Lick for that? If Lick had any other weapons that would actually hustle, he would use them. But his son was the close to the last option, and you use what you have. If you want to whine because Neari or Bawinkel didn’t get more minutes, I could tolerate it. But don’t whine about a repeated drunk not getting back quick enough.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
If he used up his strikes...when was the third strike?
that is where this shows Lickliter to be unfair. If Tucker used his third strike the night of the arrest, then cut him right there. If he didn’t don’t string him along. Period. And what are the other two strikes? Mono? Bad grades? Those are not strikes. Two alcohol issues are strikes.
The prima donna thing doesn’t matter. Every team has those. Lickliter specifically told Doc that there were specific things Tucker had to do to get back on the team and that he was doing those things—extended his ban beyond the university’s ban. First he was not on the bench. Then he was on the bench. Then he was dressing out. Then he was traveling. At the point he was dressing out he should have been part of the team…playing. But what was Lickliter’s explanation?
Rotations became set without him.The team moved on. Rotations…rotations that included his son. Rotations that suddenly left Cougill on the bench a week later in an overtime game?
At that point Lickliter was just embrassing kids. And himself if you ask me. I lost all respect right there. Treat players like men and they will act like men. Be straight up with people. Bill Self can keep a team full for 5 star recuits all on the team and playing minimal roles and we can’t keep 2 star players who are leading the team in scoring?
Lickliter acts more like a headmaster at a New England Prep School than a serious coach. And players know what the score is…they know Tucker is far better than the coaches son. And they want to fucking win games. They didn’t come to be part of some wierd morality play. They don’t want to be caught up in some symbolic power trip.
I don’t know why this is hard to digest. It looks very unseemly.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
Now hold the phone.
Lickliter never said it was a three strikes thing. Not once. Chazz did in an evidently incorrect characterization of Tucker’s time at Iowa.
I don’t like how Tucker was handled either, but I don’t think he was going to be shut out of the rotation next season if he’d stuck around. But it sure seems like he was told he wouldn’t play again this season, despite being reinstated, and that was enough to send Tucker on his way. Maybe that’s a mischaracterization too, I don’t know, but it’s the only way it makes sense. Doesn’t seem like an area in which Lickliter was being specifically unfair or uneven, certainly not to the extent you’re describing.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
I'm not so sure...
he did say the reason he wasn’t playing was rotations were set. I know that. Now, maybe he did tell Tucker that his season was over in terms of on-court but he did not claim that when questioned. He could have said what most coaches say, That’s in house biz. He didn’t say that.
I think that the players read this whole Tucker thing anyway but how Lickliter intended it to be read. I think they want to win and they may not have seen why Lil John was playing and Tucker was not. We’ll never know.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
It has nothing to do with whether or not I thought it was fair.
It has everything to do with whether or not the other players thought it was fair and if it was impacting their decision to consider transferring or not.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I know...
I think Chazz and I are having a spirited debate over the fairness of it. Or, perhaps I am having a monologue and misunderstanding everyone’s position.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
I think we're having parallel conversations with Chazz, perhaps.
It’s like SLIDING DOORS, only less retarded. (Hopefully.)
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I understand both your arguments.
But here are my three strikes:
Public intox #1 (December of 2008).
Academically ineligible for second semester (Spring, 2009).
Public intox #2 (December 2009).
No, I don’t blame him for mono. I do blame him for not keeping his academics in at least passing situation. With the resources that players get, and the smaller amount of hours they have to pass during the season, there is really no reason to flunk to the point of ineligibility.
In my head, if you have that many problems that are your fault (one of you guys said Tucker takes responsibility for them), then YOU (Tucker) get to pay the consequences. And if that includes sitting for Spring of 2010, then so be it.
I understand you guys wondering if Lick communicated well with Tucker about when he would play again. That, I can not confirm or deny, as I wasn’t part of those conversations. But Lick’s public comments weren’t glowing, so I would think Tucker could see he was in the dog house until further notice.
In pure speculation on my part, I bet Lick might have dismissed Tucker, if he didn’t think it would piss everyone off (fans, Barta, other players). He obviously was not keeping Tucker around to save his job by playing on the court, as that did not happen.
I also think (again, speculation) that Lick was trying to teach a lesson to the other players. Don’t booze, or you will lose. Work hard, and play hard ON THE COURT. Party responsibly when we start WINNING.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Well...
And if that includes sitting for Spring of 2010, then so be it.
If that was his plan, he should’ve been a hell of a lot more clear about it. If you want to say “he’s suspended for the rest of the season,” fine. But DO THAT and BE DONE WITH IT. Instead the whole thing just lingered on and, as SMA noted, Tucker went from not being on the bench at all, to being on the bench in street clothes, to being allowed to dress with the team. Why do all that if there was no intention to play him?
In pure speculation on my part, I bet Lick might have dismissed Tucker, if he didn’t think it would piss everyone off (fans, Barta, other players). He obviously was not keeping Tucker around to save his job by playing on the court, as that did not happen.
I think if he had been clear about it upfront, people would have accepted it. If he had said “Tucker has repeatedly failed in his responsibilities to the team” or something along those lines, that would have been fairly clear. Instead, he was purposefully vague about the whole situation and ambiguity invites speculation, confusion, and frustration.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
For the record
academic institutions don’t flush kids for failing a class in a semester in which the kid had mono, was in his first semester of college ever, and who also played full-time in a sport. Not even Ivy League schools, in fact especially Ivy League schools, do that. It is mean spirited, goes against the very nature of what the purpose of “education” is…you are acting like we hired Anthony Tucker. Well, we didn’t.
No matter how jaded one might be about college athletics, the fact is we offered to edcuate the young man in echange for him playing on the baskeball team. THat is called a mutual arrangement. Iowa does its best to graudate him and he does his best on the court and as a citizen. I think it speaks volumes that Lickliter’s firing was filled with the not so subtextual theme of he cannot keep students here. I am betting Mason was none too happy that Iowa was looking like a school that would never graduate a Lickliter recruit. And I don’t blame her.
Iowa ends up looking bad from every conceivable standpoint…athletically, academically, culturally…when young people don’t think they can fulfill their dreams here. And let’s face it, none of these transfers left to enhance their NBA prospects.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
And of course...
Tucker had no responsibility, it was the evil coach’s fault.
If the mono was holding him back so badly in that first semester, then why was he out boozing?
Finally, why does Lick have to promise anything to Tucker (and the public) other than a chance to slowly work his way back on the team. Ferentz is often as vague about what it takes to get players back in his good graces (sometimes it takes months, like with James Ferentz), and few people give him crap for it. But if you lose, then we must monitor every plan you make?
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we just disagree on this
which is fine. I outlined that Tucker worked hard to rehabilitate his image and place on the team. It is there for all to see.
I worked at a major university for many years and so perhaps I feel that the adult has a responsbility to the young person based on that experience. Tucker was not perfect, far from it. But he was not a demon. He worked hard to regain his academic eligibility, and was successful. He worked hard to return to the basketball team and (it appeared) was successful…but ultimately he lost his trust with the coach. He was apparently not alone at least one or two guys intimated they would not be sad to see Lick go when Barta asked.
I don’t know what you were like when you were 18 or 19 years old. But most people that age, (me for example) when under stress and pressure, which college brings about (google suicide stats in college) make not such smart decisions on how to blow off steam. And if he had a real boozing problem, then especially shame on Lickliter for not recognizing it. In corporate America there are HR departments to support workers with illness and addictions, it is expected that top flight Universities certainly should have that and more).
I would give Lick the benefit of the doubt if he didn’t have a track record be being so aloof and ambiguous with players who then exit prematurely. on my watch the guy has been erratic with everyone who transferred except Kelly and Smith (of course) and he has been none too swell with Cougill, or Fuller in his freshman year. The only player I have ever heard him really sing the praises is, of all people, his son when he was being made fun of by the TV station. He’s just a cold guy.
He’ll be fine though. He walks away with millions. I’m not sure how the transfers feel or what they really gained in all this.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
I managed to get through college, while working a job, without getting any PAULAs, PubIntoxes, or DUIs. There are plenty of people out there that do.
Tucker was not an employee. He was subject to the policies of the university regarding student conduct, and student-athlete conduct.
Lick did not play him as quick and as much as many would have liked. However, I am willing to bet some of those same people were very angry over the Pierre Pierce situation, which was violent, but probably also involved alcohol or drugs.
Giving a second or third chance is fine. Getting criticized for not kow-towing to the teenager (or “young person”) is another thing altogether, and I think it is wrong.
Yes, you and I disagree. I understand your position, but I can’t buy it. If you can’t buy my position, that is fine. But I’m not sure that we need to start throwing resumes around to try to prove our points. I work with youth also. In my experience, it seems that more tolerance on teenage alcohol or drug use only leads to more poor behavior. If the “young person” doesn’t want to change (or isn’t motivated to change) he/she can get into habits that will make his/her life very difficult.
With that said, does it really matter? Both Lick and Tucker are gone, and I’m sure the next coach will at some point deal with a player who will have an issue (or issues) with alcohol or drugs or whatnot.
If we ever come up with the answer to this problem, let’s all write a book and make a bunch of money.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 15, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not seeking credibility when I tell you
my experience. I am telling you the basis of my perspective. There is a massive difference and I am sorry it was lost on you. Also, tossing Pierre Pierce in this discussion is strange at best and ill-considered at worst. He was a sexual abuser. I don’t see how it is remotely comparable or useful even if you buy the completely debunked arguments that one behavior leads naturally to another (i.e., booze inevitably leads to marijuana, which leads to cocaine, which leads to heroine, and, finally a life of violent crime). Finally, Tucker did not drive drunk—that is a big difference. In fact, he called a cab. And if you work with young people then you know every kid has their own experience and their own advantages and challenges they are working within. So while I commend you for making it through college without an alcohol related arrest, it doesn’t mean much at all in terms of our discussion. I am quite certain there are many, many differences between Tucker’s collegiate experience and yours.
I think the answer is to work with young people. No matter how challenging the effort required. Again, bringing this back to Lickliter, he was (IMO) fired because he never fully realized or embraced that these scholarship players — whether recruited by him or not — were assets to be nurtured and guarded. To me it goes without saying that you cannot just burn through people until you find the perfect ones for your endeavor. That is utterly naive to me, and in the end that appears to have been unacceptable to Barta.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
I actually kind of enjoyed your last paragraph there.
The reason I brought up Pierce is that, he too was getting a second chance. And that second chance was what turned many people away from Alford and from Iowa basketball.
Maybe Tucker did do the right thing by calling a cab. However, would the right thing be to not drink since you are not 21, and you already have one public intox?
When you have someone who is willing to make a decision like that, and then get caught making that decision, do you really feel the continued need to “work with” that person? Or, do you realize that that person is not respecting you or the priveledges he has been given, and say that that person now must learn the lesson. And if the person does not learn the lesson (to be part of the team and not be a drunk), then they are free to look for other opportunities?
Again, if we disagree that much, that will happen. However, I don’t think Lick is throwing away players like they are trash. The one player I feel like he came close to doing that with is David Palmer, not Anthony Tucker.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 16, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough
we’ve exhausted the topic…I’ll be interested to see if Tucker is recruited by the new coach or if his scholarship is officially over and now part of the general pool.
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
Same here.
As you can tell, I don’t really want him back. But, until recently, I hadn’t even thought of the idea of trying to convince him to stay. Something tells me there is no possibility, but I have no clue what his academic status is at the moment.
Whoever the new coach is, he will need as many weapons as possible (not in the Gilbert Arenas sense) to get a good-to-average start in his first year.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Mar 16, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.
Apparently the meeting lasted eight minutes............
and Lickliter ignored reporters and left. That doesn’t sound like an extension to me.
I will miss the glory days of the Lickliter regime. Remember……….. hmm.
Life is hard. It's really hard if you're stupid.
gazette reports 2:30 press conference
the Lick era has ended
"For the charming if somewhat curius branch of mankind known as Cub fans, spring is a sanguine time.. Every spring holds the blithe hope that perhaps this is the season in which Satan will grow weary and ease up on the headlock in which he has diabolically held Chicago's mightly struggling National League baseball team since 1908..." Lonnie Wheeler- "Bleachers"
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