68-58: Progress?
Oh, like this recap was going to come before the Super Bowl. Bitch, please.
It's not a bright, shining day in Iowa City. Mainly because I'm writing this about midnight, but we're speaking in metaphors here. Ohio State dispatched the Hawkeyes, 68-58; we're still not sure how to feel about it.
On one hand, today's game could be construed as a demoralizer. The Hawkeyes were bereft of opportunities to win a game in which their opponents didn't really play very well. They had absolutely no answer for Evan Turner, and Ohio State had a demonstrably superior level of talent up and down the roster. If these two teams played 10 times, we're saying 9-10 wins for OSU.
On the other hand, there were probably lots of things Lickliter wanted the team to accomplish at which that they succeeded. They got Dallas Lauderdale in foul trouble. They didn't give OSU very many open jumpers. They shot 3s at a 40% rate. They gave the Buckeyes a 40-minute game.
And yet they still lost by 10.
So what is there to go on? Do we focus on Eric May (16 points, 4-7 3s, one steal, two dunks) continuing to assert himself as the most mansome player on the team? Do we continue to highlight Cully Payne's inconsistencies at the point (11 points on nine shots; six ghastly turnovers)? Are we more horrified at the thought that Jarryd Cole still has another year at Iowa, or at the notion of how worse off Iowa would be if he transferred*? What's to be made of Matt Gatens, who might be slowly morphing into Jake Christensen on account of having to minimize mistakes on a bad offense? And where (and when) does Anthony Tucker fit back into all of this?
We really don't have answers to these questions. We're not sure Todd Lickliter does either. That's not a criticism of his abilities or anything like that; it's just that he gets good performances out of about two or three players a game, and he needs at least four to win. If it were easy or obvious how to correct this problem, Lickliter would have done it already. As it stands, he's done more than nothing; Eric May now has Devan Bawinkel's minutes, John Lickliter is a bandaid at the point, and previously horrific indicators like offensive rebound percentage and turnover percentage are now at merely pedestrian levels of badness.
Of course, arguments like those won't put butts back in the seats; that only comes with A) wins and B) a total fucking explosion of the current seating structure. So while we totally believe these incremental improvements are nice, positive indicators, they're still bad news for the program. Gary Barta and the athletic department have to decide how to schedule for next year's team, where wins help the program but the only teams that'll draw interested fans would probably beat the Hawkeyes. Again, we have no answer to this question.
What we do presume to know, however, is that firing Lickliter now or at the end of the season would be a bad move. Whether you believe in the team's season as being indicative of incremental improvement (we do) is up for debate; what's usually not mentioned, however, is the utterly deleterious effect a firing has on a team. It sets offensive development back to square one. It usually leads to transfers--the very thing that has haunted Lickliter up until maybe this season. Most of all, it sends the message that the Iowa job is undesirable; schools that go around firing any coach that's not producing in a three-year period usually find themselves doing a whole lot of firing. Meanwhile, the Iowa football team has conducted one hire and zero fires in the past 30 years.
Todd Lickliter will be fired if he cannot demonstrate an ability to produce a winning program. His detractors may rest assured of that. However, it can be successfully argued that because of issues beyond his control (returning talent level, unavoidable transfers), he has not had a sufficient opportunity to build a winner. That excuse's shelf life is starting to run out,, though. And by the end of next season, we'll know if days like these--with positive trends and a negative result--have been harbingers of greater success or just merely insufficient plateaus of performance. We won't know until then; to pretend otherwise is to demonstrate nothing more than an intolerable confidence in one's own imagination. Besides, the ambiguity's more interesting than certainty anyway.
*Important note: We have zero reason to believe this would happen. You may freely substitute in "quits basketball," "tears another ACL," "loses arms after being mauled by Kodiak bears on Hubbard Park," or "pulls a Tony Gonzalez and dominates the NFL" without altering any point we were trying to make.
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though you don't need hands to be a big name NFL player
just ask Braylon Edwards
Luck is probability taken personally, clutch is probability attributed to individuals.
At least he was smart enough to wait until the NFL to become Capt. Drops-a-lot.
Cole spends half the game now treating the ball like it’s a decapitated head.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

"I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er." - Adrian Clayborn
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Feb 8, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
GIF fail
"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me
by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 8, 2010 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
I really hope that wasn't an image of someone playing with a decapitated head.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Damnit...
It was the head-licking scene from Tropic Thunder.
"I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er." - Adrian Clayborn
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Feb 8, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Expect the Hawkeyes to plays worse and worse
as the season winds down. Why? Exhaustion. They are very young and likely not used to the rigors of Big Ten basketball and they are a miniscule 7 man rotation. It is total survival mode for them right now.
Moreover, the team might be a bit demoralized. They no doubt have a very good idea of what are their weaknesses. They’ve had ample time to address them, and appear to be unable to do so. Thus they are no longer “building” the season. They are flatlining.
So, this is our team, the talent and skill, or lack thereof, has been laid bare for all there to see. Nothing is hidden any longer. And let’s be honest, there is no possibility of a sudden burst of production from the bench (ala David Palmer last year).
I expect a transfer might happen yet. I expect Cougill may actually go backward in terms of development unless he completely overhauls his body. Cully Payne is a player who has disappointed me the most because the one thing he could and should have improved upon with experience is turnovers, and yet he has gotten worse. Much worse. Matt Gaten has flatlined in his career or has merely proven he is a very solid role player who is incapable or uncomfortable being a star player. The few positives are that May is a future All-Big Ten player if he can continue to grow as a player, and he seems very likely to do just that. Fuller is a solid player, and while his little midseason points outburst had some thinking he was a star in the making, I think he is merely a solid Big Ten player.
That’s three guys who can do the big time by my count…May, Fuller and Gatens. That’s not nearly enough. The inside is a problem, ball control is a problem, we do not have an offense or the partds for the final two minutes of a game. We cannot break people down or get to the free throw line when the game is on the line. And a good number of these 10 point losses were apparently five point games at the two minute mark that just spiraled out of control. (A few games back the BTN flashed a stat that showed Iowa 3-1 in games decided by 5 or fewer points…I now get that stat. We were probably up by 10+ with two minutes left and won by five.) Bottom line, we cannot win a tied game down the stretch.
I don’t know what to do either. I fear we are about to become the St. Johns of the midwest. St. Johns, a storied basketball program with a wealth of talent at their disposal, hired a promising young coach who had to shine off the dirt of a few down years, and by year three they showed a glimmer of hope for about 10 games in the middle of that season, but it never got any better and now they are just flat out mediocre five years after that hire. He will probably be fired at season’s end, and the alums are looking back and thinking this is two seasons later than it should have been.
Will we be thinking that in two years?
"Gravity cannot be held responsible for Tiger's fall." -- Albert Einstein
Good food for thought.
I expect a transfer might happen yet.
Unless his name rhymes with, um, Bandrew Drommer… DO NOT WANT. The only somewhat expendable guys on this roster are Brommer, Lickliter, and Bawinkel; The Moose will be gone after this season (he is a senior, right?) and Lickliter should see his minutes disappear after we add a few more guards next season. Not that the remaining guys are the core of a future BXI champion or anything, but they at least seem like a solid enough foundation to claw our way back to respectability (when/if they get supplemented by some more decent players).
I expect Cougill may actually go backward in terms of development unless he completely overhauls his body. Cully Payne is a player who has disappointed me the most because the one thing he could and should have improved upon with experience is turnovers, and yet he has gotten worse. Much worse. Matt Gaten has flatlined in his career or has merely proven he is a very solid role player who is incapable or uncomfortable being a star player. The few positives are that May is a future All-Big Ten player if he can continue to grow as a player, and he seems very likely to do just that. Fuller is a solid player, and while his little midseason points outburst had some thinking he was a star in the making, I think he is merely a solid Big Ten player.
I am encouraged by the leap Fuller made this year, but it’s hard to say how good he can become. The improvement (or lack thereof) of most of the guys on our team is going to depend heavily on how well we can develop a point guard. May seems like the only guy who might have a prayer of being able to develop into a guy that can create his own shot a bit.
As far as Gatens… his destiny is to be a good second banana, but he can’t do that while we have no creators or stars on this team. He can’t create his shot consistently and I’m not sure he’ll ever be able to (May gives me hope because he has a level of athleticism unmatched by anyone else on this roster). But he seems like a guy that could get you around 10ppg, 5-6rpg, and 3-4apg if he had a point guard who could help set him up better and a star player to take the focus off of him. Maybe that’s what you meant by “very solid role player,” I dunno (I interpreted that as something more like a high-level Bawinkel-type, I guess, and I think Gatens can be a bit more than that).
He will probably be fired at season’s end, and the alums are looking back and thinking this is two seasons later than it should have been.
Will we be thinking that in two years?
I think that’s a possibility, but I’m more concerned that a firing this off-season will simply restart the cycle we’ve seen this off-season. It says to the coaching community, “We’ll give a reigning National Coach of the Year a program with sub-standard facilities, a roster with average talent to begin with, and a roster rocked by transfers (and obviously some of the harm there is self-inflicted by Lick, but not all of it)… and we’ll give him three years before we kick him to the curb. So which one of you promising up-and-comers wants to sign up for the job now?” At least a year or so from now the facilities issue will be improved and we’ll be able to say that we gave him a full four years, which is a reasonable length of time.
Don’t get me wrong — I’m frustrated by the downward spiral of the hoops program over the past few years and I don’t believe for a second that it necessarily SHOULD take that long to revive a basketball program. One need only look at Minnesota or Kansas State to see how quickly a turnaround can be achieved. Sure, they have certain advantages that don’t exist at Iowa (Minnesota is a major metro area, K-State has rock bottom academic standards), but they aren’t that dissimilar, either… they just happened to make strong coaching hires.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Brilliantly said...and I think this is the best argument to keep him.
I think that’s a possibility, but I’m more concerned that a firing this off-season will simply restart the cycle we’ve seen this off-season. It says to the coaching community, "We’ll give a reigning National Coach of the Year a program with sub-standard facilities, a roster with average talent to begin with, and a roster rocked by transfers (and obviously some of the harm there is self-inflicted by Lick, but not all of it)… and we’ll give him three years before we kick him to the curb. So which one of you promising up-and-comers wants to sign up for the job now?"
"Gravity cannot be held responsible for Tiger's fall." -- Albert Einstein
re: your last two paragraphs -
Well said. We’re simply going to have to be patient, and see what happens with the incoming recruits.
MORE ZAZZ! I DEMAND MORE ZAZZ!
w00t!
The doctor I work for – a dermatologist – will be doing skin checks for the NCAA Wrestling Championships. He’s going to try to put me down as an “assistant.” No, I’m not excited about seeing the skin of a bunch of sweaty guys, but I would get to hang at the meet.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
RE: scheduling
I think you have to schedule for wins, even if it’s against the likes of Wyoming Tech and St. Mary’s Catholic Girls School (don’t laugh, they have some mean outside shooters). Conference play brings an opportunity to see actual really good teams (Mich St, Ohio St, Purdue) play at CHA and, as best I can tell, they aren’t bringing out fans in droves. Better attendance numbers, sure, but it’s not like CHA is selling out or anything. Scheduling their likes in the non-conf season would be a band-aid on the problem. Scheduling Wyoming Tech may not bring many people to the arena, but this team just needs to win, period. It needs to win to give fans some reason to hope a little, to give the team some confidence that it’s actually on the right track, and to give recruits some indication that maybe they aren’t signing away four years to get a free education but play for a woeful basketball team that won’t sniff any postseason play outside of the Big Ten Tournament.
Plus, this team needs to learn how to win consistently — against anyone. Their tank is going to be plum full of moral victories after this season, but they don’t really know how to win. Whenever they do (which, obviously, has been a rare sight this season), it feels like they somehow stumbled into it — and I think the team feels almost as bewildered by it as we do watching it.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Wyo Tech
They’ll send five guys out to kick our ass and have the subs turn Lickliter’s 4-cyl family truckster into a bitchin’ roadster all before halftime.
Tom Davis had it made when he came in
The best 3 players he ever had were already there when he started. He was able to blend in his players for the next 3 years because of Roy, BJ and Eddie (I think we would all think differently of Lickliter if he came in and had 3 sophomores the level of those 3 and stick around all three years). That gave him a chance to mold his program. After they left, Davis had a horrible year. He then would go on and usually be around 20 wins and have one down year about every 4. He never got back to the sweet sixteen until his last year when it was senior dominated (so much so, we had the senior citizen Jess Settles on it).
I truly believe Lickliter is a better coach than Davis, its just that Lick came in a much, much worse situation. I think people have put Davis on a pedestal that he truly does not deserve. He was a fine coach, but we built most of our wins in the preseason against crap teams. He never won the Big Ten or a Big Ten tournament. He kept us middle of the road. While that might look good now, I want more from Iowa basketball. Lickliter gave Florida’s second championship team its hardest game in the tournament. I believe it was his 5th year at Butler (maybe 6th). He is a system coach just like Davis.
Lick has had the worse luck when all the players who have left (all originally Alford recruits), didn’t leave at once. If they did, we would have senior players who have been in the system. We would of been able to withstand losing Tucker (and not have to play Lil John). We could possibly have veteran big men who have sneaky moves underneath. Also, veteran teams usually have less turnovers. You give us that right now with our good young players, and we have a much different season.
Lets support our Hawks this year and next, and then see where the cards lie.
GO HAWKS!!
Disagree re: Lick vs. Dr. Tom
Yes, Dr. Tom did come into a great situation at Iowa. He also came in as an old fart into a perennial shithole situation at Drake and left it in damn good hands for his son. It’s not like Dr. Tom has only been gifted cush opportunities for success.
Once Lick wins 20 games at Iowa in a single season (36 wins in three seasons and slowly counting), let’s discuss if he’s a better coach than a guy who won over 250 games here. Until then, Lick is a great mid-major coach whose system doesn’t work in a physical conference like the Big Ten.
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 8, 2010 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Sure works at Ohio State with Thad Motta
The hardest thing to do is get your program started. He was able to implement it with outstanding players that he had left over. That is why I think next year is key. We will finally have upperclassmen and see how the system is truly progressing.
I think Dr Tom is a good coach, but he is not as great as many on this site make him out to be.
I think Matta's secret is that he's a fantastic recruiter.
Didn’t they say yesterday that everyone from Turner’s recruiting class is in the NBA now except him? And he’ll be there in about six months.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Also...
Matta came into a situation not very much like Iowa when Lick showed up. Jim O’Brien may have given money to his EuroPlayas, but he also won 20 games 4 of his 7 years, including one final four and winning in the first round of the big dance two other times.
Also, Lick basically takes himself off the list for a lot of top players because of his style. Davis’s style allowed Iowa to be in on a few decent-to-pretty good recruits, even if we rarely got those guys (Horner, Oliver, Ricky Davis, etc.)
I want Lick to turn it around. I am hopeful that next year they can win 20 games. But, do you see a team that will be basically led by Gatens and Cole, with a ton of still-young dudes (the frosh, May, Payne, Cougill) really going any better than 10-8 in the Big Ten?
You can’t fire Lick now, but how do you justify keeping him in two years if we are clawing our way into the NIT?
I do not buy the idea that we would be better off if Cole, Kelly, Freeman, Smith, and others had left right off the bat. We would have had a season like Crean had right away, and we would not have been able to recruit as well. These three seasons could have been even worse (I know, it is hard to imagine).
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 8, 2010 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
Davis vs Lickliter
I agree with vahawk’s comments regarding the state of the program when Davis arrived vs Lickliter’s time, but I disagree about the quality of coaching. Although Davis didn’t match Raveling for recruiting (a combo of Raveling running recruitment and Davis coaching would have been great), I was impressed at his player development. His teams consistently learned how to rebound well (Iowa and Drake), and he took a lackluster Brad Lohaus, who Raveling had no clue how to use, and turned him into a star. Davis always worked well with the athletes he had (Drake is a great example), and found the right roles for his players.
by Space Hawkeye on Feb 8, 2010 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
I said he was a fine coach
I just think people overrate how good he was since what has happened since then
Say what you want about Dr. Tom,
but I would much rather enjoy seeing an Iowa team make it into the NCAA tourney almost 70% of the time over anything else. I agree I want to see the team take the next step, is Lick the man to take us there, it’s really hard to say when he was dealing with a team who he didn’t recruit. We should know from the watching the football teams rise in the aughts, that it takes the coach getting the guys he wants into the spots they need to be. I hope that Lick is still the coach of the team when these guys right now are JR’s and SR’s.
"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me
by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 8, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
And we got rid of him because we were static as a program
The real push against Davis being let go really took off during the NCAA run to the Sweet 16. He did a very nice job, but he just isn’t as great as a lot of people make him out to be.
He was absolutely a class act...
and he won nicely (not big-time, but nicely) at Iowa and Boston College. He did a nice job at Lafayette. He was not able to pull Stanford out of the 15-year funk it was in. He laid the foundation for Drake’s resurrection.
And he appears to have done it all without being a complete slime-ball like so many coaches are today.
Tom Davis wasn’t the biggest winner, he wasn’t dominant, he wasn’t a star. But he was nearly perfect for Iowa basketball, and I will always defend him.
Despite Iowa’s successes under Ralph Miller, Lute Olsen, and older days, we should probably be damn thankful anytime we make an NCAA tourney or win a game. We are not Duke, Michigan State, Kansas, UCLA. We will most likely never be like them.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 8, 2010 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
I also know guys who were on the Grey Team when he was there
Lets just say the players got away with a lot. He was class, but he allowed his players to not be (at least definitely in the late 80s early 90s). With how Iowa City is now a days, there might be a different shine on his way of coaching
Cocaine's a helluva drug...?
MORE ZAZZ! I DEMAND MORE ZAZZ!
by Bucketochicken on Feb 8, 2010 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
Most people would call Ferentz a class-act...
and look at what the football team has had in the last 5 years.
Basically, I can not recall Davis’s players acting badly in public. I don’t have any inside knowledge. I do remember Davis recruited some kid from Illinois who stole some credit cards or something, and of course the whole Greg Helmers incident. And who knows what Roy Marble Sr was doing in college. I’d call that a pretty clean record over 13 years.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 8, 2010 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
Things got cover up back then
But when guys are coming into practice with alcohol on their breath (for one), and you do nothing, that is not the best thing to do.
You may be right...
Were those players of age to drink? If so, what can you really do, as long as they aren’t acting like dummies and hurting others.
I bet there are tens of thousands of students who have gone to a class either drunk or hung-over.
I don’t think it should happen, but I don’t think this is a problem unique to Dr. Tom. But maybe he could have taken them aside and either admonished or explained to them that it wasn’t right.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 9, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
That is my point
He didn’t make those kids accountable to the program. I think we would all agree that Kirk does. And I think we would agree that Lickliter has (he has sat Tucker a lot more than most other coaches would for a kid being caught drunk twice).
Davis was a good coach. My whole point is that he is being held up by many as a great coach we let go. I wanted him gone when he left. We were stuck in nuetral. We never won the conference. He was good, but he never took us to that next level.
It was time to shake it up. I thought Alford was the wrong hire because he had never been through a down year as a coach (he was a golden boy until he came to Iowa). He also (as we found out) wants to be the big fish in the pond, but our football coach will be. It wasn’t a good fit (he found a better one in New Mexico, and they are getting the fruits of what he learned in his down years at Iowa).
I trust in Lick, but I also know that he has to produce noticeable improvement next year. He is a good coach, but has just had a lot of bad breaks (Alford players leaving over 3 years, Jake Kelly’s mother’s death and the transfer, Tucker partying up like crazy). If he doesn’t get in done next year, everyone will be on the same page.
No no no. I don’t buy the last paragraph. Iowa isn’t Duke, Kansas or Carolina. But, year in and out 1/2 of the Big XI teams get serious consideration for the stupid tournament. There is no fucking reason this school shouldn’t be in that mix every year, current results notwithstanding. This school and fans will support a revenue sport given good reason to do so. I don’t know whether Lickliter will get this done or not. I do know the school does not have a history of running coaches in the sports it cares about (for arguments sake, football, wrestling and basketball). IMO, being happy in the long run just to make the field is setting the bar obscenely low, and if Barta feels that way, he should be encouraged to seek other employment.
Who has ever set the bar high at Iowa...
in mens’ basketball, and stayed around? Maybe there is a first time for everything, but you also have to be realistic.
We are at best a middle-tier Big Ten program, and at worst treading water in the bottom third of the conference. Right now, we are lucky that Michigan and Indiana are down as they have shown that they can be much better programs when they have it rolling. I don’t foresee us jumping above Wisky, MSU, or Purdue in the near future. Minnesota will most likely be more competitive for the future.
With current fan support, we are at a disadvantageous position in trying to stay with or ahead of jNW, PSU, maybe Indiana and Michigan. I don’t think we are better than Illinois or Ohio State.
Basically, expecting Iowa to make good NCAA tourney runs every other or every third year is just not possible right now, and might not start happening for at least another 3 or 4 years (and that is if Lick can turn things around).
Maybe the new practice facility and the club seats in Carver will be big difference-makers, but I’m not sure.
Right now, we need to concentrate on getting to .500 or just above. Then, we can concentrate on making the big dance with regularity.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 8, 2010 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
Crazy Idea but hear me out
Bring Chris Doyle and Tom Brands over to CHA and have them work with the BB team in the offseason. I guarangoddamntee we see significant improvement
No more of that talk or I'll put the fucking leeches on you, understand? Raoul Duke
Doyle would turn Cully Payne into Cully PAIN.
"I am in blood stepped in so far that should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o’er." - Adrian Clayborn
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Feb 8, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I hope you are joking.
I love Brands and Doyle. Brands is a man driving everyone to be better than the best. He is great for our wrestling team, but he might drive half of our soft-spoken basketball team into a trauma-induced coma.
Doyle is awesome, and has made walk-ons into all-conference players. But football and basketball are so different. We don’t need our basketball players to be explosively strong. We do need them to learn to hit some free throws and some mid-range shots.
You were probably joking, so forgive my rant.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 8, 2010 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
When I was a student, I suggested the same thing about Doyle
but working specifically with Erik Hansen
by HeroPatriotStanzi on Feb 8, 2010 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
IF we are not using Doyle or someone to ensure top flight conditoning
with this team, then we are in much worse shape than I dreamed of and that, for me, would be grounds to cut Lickliter loose.
I think these guys are on some on-going workout and conditioning plan. God, I hope so.
"Gravity cannot be held responsible for Tiger's fall." -- Albert Einstein
The problem might be that it could be a better
more anaerobic plan?
"Gravity cannot be held responsible for Tiger's fall." -- Albert Einstein
I think they hired a BB-specific strength and conditioning coach this past off-season.
You can definitely see improvement in some guys — most notably Fuller.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
I'm glad to see there are other people that are on the same page as me
I’ve been one of the very few Lickliter supporters throughout this whole ordeal (my senior year was his first year at Iowa), and have voiced my opinion on other boards (cbssports mainly) only to get crushed by everyone wanting to see Lickliter gone.
by HeroPatriotStanzi on Feb 8, 2010 11:07 AM CST reply actions
Hmm.
have voiced my opinion on other boards (cbssports mainly)
I think I’ve identified your problem for you.
"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"
Believe me, I'd already identified the problem
but it was annoying having every positive thing I said about Iowa basketball/Lickliter fall on deaf ears, and all I hear in reply is “GRRR LOSING SUCKS FIRE COACH”
It was like listening to a bunch of pessimist Tim Brewsters all in the same room.
So thank you OPS (and others who agree) for not throwing Lickliter under the bus yet.
by HeroPatriotStanzi on Feb 8, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
You absolutely can't fire him this offseason...
…even if Iowa doesn’t win another Big XI game. OPS and several others make the point perfectly. Iowa cannot get a reputation as a place that doesn’t give coaches a fair shot. You have to let him sink or swim with his own guys and system in place for a couple years. He’s had a terrible set of circumstances, defections, and no clear picture on how much of it is his fault.
If everyone comes back next year and there isn’t clear progress in the W-L record, a legitimate debate can be had on whether he deserves year 5. Anyone who says he doesn’t deserve year 4, frankly, is clueless. If Iowa becomes a revolving door of coaches we truly will become Nebraska or Penn State in basketball, where we can hope for maybe one decent season a decade, if we’re not already getting close to being there.
Even Nebraska and Penn State...
give their coaches a lot of time. Penn State’s coaches before DeChellis had these tenures: Dunn had 8 years, Parkhill had 10 years, Dick Harter had 5 years before jumping to become an NBA assistant, and Bach had 10 years.
For Nebraska before Sadler, Collier had about 6 years, Nee had 13 or 14 years, Iba Jr had 6 years, and Cipriano had roughly 16 years.
The more I look at this stuff, the more I realize how much time that Lick and McDermott at Iowa State probably have left.
I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
-- Judge Smails
by WaterlooChazz on Feb 8, 2010 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, Penn State is a horrible example.
Because the administration doesn’t give a crap about basketball as long it’s making money. Bruce Parkhill, Jerry Dunn (Or "Black Parkhill), and Ed “Parkhill take three” DeChellis are all pretty much the same coach.
"I AM A DIEHARD REDSKINS FAN, CAPS, LEAFS, AND I LOVE WATCHING TENNIS. SO WHATS THE BIG DEAL"
by ReadingRambler on Feb 9, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
The problem is . . .
The Iowa basketball program has to be hemorrhaging money now. Attendance is the worst in program history and they have a major capital project ongoing.
That said, Lickliter will certainly be given at least until the Carver renovation and practice facility project is completed. That is a bare minimum “sell” to attract even a marginally attractive new coach.
The only thing I disagree with OPS on . . .
Is his disdain of Cully Payne.
The kid is a freshman, logging crazy minutes in the Big 10 – and is managing to pretty much hold his own. Sure, his turnovers make me pull my hair out, but again, he is only a year away from high school ball and is literally Iowa’s ONLY legitimate ball-handling option.
I think it’s way to premature to decide he will never be an adequate Big 10 point guard. I really think he doesn’t seem any worse than Dean Oliver was as a frosh, and Dean-O ended up with a very nice career at Iowa.
I’d also add Tucker into the “no big deal if he transfers” column. Sure, he’s teased us (particularly during his freshman year) with some scoring acumen, but nothing else of note. It might be better to not even have him around to wonder “what if” about.
I don't think Iowa can afford to lose anyone
I really don’t. He needs Tucker if, for nothing else, to gie other guys a breather. Let’s not expect these freshmen to lead Iowa next year to a 20 win season. At this point, the best case scenario as I see it is that Iowa wins 1/2 its games next year with two signature wins. They’re looking down the barrel of a 10-21 season AT BEST. So improving by 6 games would be pretty much all you could really expect.
I’m not sure he deserves a year five if he wins, say, 13 next year. Although I think he will get it. The sad part is that Iowa Basketball has broken its trust with the fans. It might be years before we see substantial fan support for Iowa Basketball again. It would probably take a nice preseason ranking and a special player to really boost it again.
"Gravity cannot be held responsible for Tiger's fall." -- Albert Einstein
There's a difference between "sucky" and "inconsistent"
And I chose that word carefully. He has flashes of competent play. He also has flashes of hare-brained decisions and a negative assist/turnover ratio in Big Ten play. That’s inconsistency.
I think it’s way to premature to decide he will never be an adequate Big 10 point guard.
I absolutely have never made that claim or anything close to it.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
Maybe not directly . . .
But it’s fairly easily implied from your entire body of work.
And hey, you may be right! I just, at this point in time, for my mental health, prefer to hold out optimism that he is just experience freshman growing “paynes” (ha!).
Oh, and I never said you said he was sucky.
I'm echoing a few comments here, but for what it's worth...
1) The Lickliter plan deserves another year. He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named didn’t just leave the cupboards bare, he ripped down the cupboards, took all the lightbulbs and pulled the wiring out of the walls. This is Lick’s baby now, and he gets another year to turn the Titanic around.
2) These guys are running on fumes, but they haven’t quit. Remember the first few years of the Ferentz era? They guys weren’t very good, but they didn’t quit. I do think the Kelly transfer set things back more than we realize.
3) An earlier post mentioned conditioning and attitude coaching courtesy of Messers Brands and Doyle. I’m all for it. Keep in mind that our boys will never be able to wear white unis again, what with the fear-based poop and pee stains.
4) I’d love to watch a Brands practice. God, I’d eat nails for that guy.
5) We have to be ready to have this conversation again year. Honestly, an NIT berth next year might be our Final Four.
If we do have to hire again after next (or this) season, what do we want in a coach? A lot of coaches want to be treated like the top dog. That’s not gonna happen here. This is Capt. Kirk’s kingdom. And what coach will feel comfortable looking at all those wrestling banners in Carver’s rafters?
What kind of coach can set his ego aside enough to stay and be successful here?
Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.
by Blackheartnopants on Feb 8, 2010 4:29 PM CST reply actions
Davis and Lickliter in perspective
No worries, vahawk. I understood your intent and don’t take issue. The point I should have been clearer on regarding Tom Davis is that I saw him get the most out of players, and he was able to adjust to the talent he had. He didn’t need others stepping up for him with the “he needs his type of players” mantra. In college, a coach obviously is responsible for the recruiting, but circumstances, such as taking over a program, test those coaches to see if they can create a style of play that maximizes the abilities of the players. I see Lickliter forced into a situation where he doesn’t have the specific ‘tools’ he’d like, and I’m looking to see more from him in doing the best with what he has rather than only knowing one approach.

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