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Iowa Basketball: Turning a corner or heading toward a wipeout?

Iowa basketball resumes tonight and I know what you're thinking. Well, actually I don't. But here's what I am thinking about. 

So today I watched an interesting discussion at The Hlog. Scott Dochterman, Mike Hlas and John Campbell of KCRG-TV ask if Iowa basketball has turned a corner or not. It is an interesting and an important question for so many reasons. Not the least of which is this, if fans feel this team is beginning to turn a corner then perhaps we could see a a few more faces inside of Carver-Hawkeye next year. On the other hand, if there is a sense that this team is still very much lost in the weeds and many more losses and frustrations lie in wait, then one could reasonably expect ticket sales to be even worse next year than this year's historic lows, and pressure will begin to mount for Gary Barta to make a move. That would certainly be the case if we see continued player movement as players--even small minute players like Cougill or Brommer--look to separate themselves from the program...and then we could be looking at the head coach being fired or forced into an early resignation, and yet another rebuilding project with Iowa basketball.

So after almost three season under a new regime, where are we exactly with this program? Dochterman and Hlog suggest that Lickliter is not far off when he claims that he has found his "core" with which Iowa basketball will climb back to prominence. The core is suggested to be Matt Gatens, Aaron Fuller, Eric May and Cully Payne. What is not discussed among these three is Lickliter himself. Is his system, and is he, able to grow the core and weave in the incoming promise of next year's fresman class and bring Iowa back to winning basketball?

Let's break it down because there is a lot there to analyze: the core and the incoming freshmen, also known as the talent, the coach, also known as the leader, and the system, also known as, uh, the system.

Star-divide

There is no question that the best coaching and even the greatest system in the world can carry an untalented team only so far. Big Ten basketball might not be as competitive or top-flight as ACC or Big East basketball has been in recent years and this year, but it is still a very competitive conference nationally and it still attracts upper level basketball talent. Iowa is not the only program experiencing some tension right now, a couple of other Big Ten teams with rich histories in basketball are down now as well, most notably Indiana. But the Hoosiers' athletic department and fan base seem very convinced of their plan to return to the upper echelons and the man who will take them there. Michigan and Minnesota have great expectations for their programs too but appear to be struggling to find their footing, yet they both seem satisfied with their coach and the direction of their programs. Not to mention that they both appear to still be drawing strong crowds to home games. Overall basketball in the Big Ten is still strong and relevant, Michigan State just played for the National Championship, Purdue is poised to make a deep run this year and Ohio State might surprise in the Big Dance...and oh by the way, Ohio State might have the best player in the nation in Evan Turner. So while Big Ten basketball might not be as strong at the bottom as it has been in other decades, it is still plenty potent as a conference (you may recall the Big Ten won the Big ten/ACC Challenge this year) and that is because there are still some very good coaches and players in the conference.

Talent

A major question that everyone would like to get a handle on relates to quality of Iowa's current and future players. Are Iowa's players, and in particular are the core, good enough to help Iowa get over the hump and win consistently in the Big Ten in the next two or three years? Does Iowa have enough talent and the right talent coming in to build up the roster to upper tier Big Ten standards? There is no way to know if the incoming freshmen will meet the expectation that recruiting experts have projected for them, this we all know. But we have seen plenty of this core group now. We just might have enough material to project them forward.

Matt Gatens - so far Gatens appears to have proven that he has a Big Ten body and Big Ten skill set. He is poised and mature and has been so since day one. What Gatens may not have proven thus far is that he can be consistent, to be the calm amid the storm that is Iowa basketball inconsistency. Morevoer, there are questions about Gaten's ability to stand apart as a leader of this team. Will he ever be that player? Does he have to be?

Aaron Fuller - he has battled injuries and ignorance in his short basketball career. In Fuller's freshman year Lickliter would often highlight Fuller's difficulty grasping key elements of his system in postgame comments. Fuller played big minutes in some games and was very productive while he appeared lost or simply languished on the bench due to foul trouble or Lickliter's ambivalence in other games. This year, after some early injuries, he has been a more consistent presence though and especially so during Big Ten play. Fuller appears to be finding his niche on the team and in the league and might be "breaking out." Can he be Iowa's next "star" player? Is he already? Is he deserving of even more focus by Lickliter?

Eric May - many believed May would be a role player on this team before the start of the season and that his number one goal was to just get a few minutes a game and find a position. Thanks to Tucker's suspension May has settled in to the starting lineup and stood out on a number of occasions. It is a bit unclear if he is a shooting guard or small forward, and it might not matter in this line-up. He is very athletic, perhaps the strongest player on the team, and already at this stage of his young career appears to be able to guard nearly every player on the opposition. He has probably already exceeded expectations but where can and should his skills go from here?

Cully Payne - right now he is the only starting freshman point guard in the Big Ten, although is that due to his ability or circumstance? No doubt Payne is a true point guard but he is small by Big Ten standards. Nevertheless he's shown more often than not he can play at this level and in this conference, yet he has also shown that his physical limitation can be a real problem for Iowa, especially on the defensive end. He plays a lot of minutes, too many minutes most likely, which could explain some of his late game breakdowns. Teams tax him by forcing him to expend a lot of energy just dribbling (the man does like to dribble) the ball upcourt knowing he is Iowa's only legitimate option at point guard. He has been valiant, but is he a long-term answer at the position?

The Incoming Freshmen - Rivals.com has rated Iowa's incoming freshmen all with 3-stars. Forwards Zach McCabe and Cody Larson and guards Ben Brust and Roy Marble, Jr. are rated by some scouting services to be a Top 25 incoming freshman class. Projecting them at Iowa is silly at this point. They have not even completed their senior years in high school and the leap to college is profound. But, is there legitimate reason to be optimistic about this group? Do they fulfill needs (on paper) that Iowa has in terms of both talent and position?

Leader

Todd Lickliter has won National Coach of the Year honors for his work at Butler. That success got him the Iowa job. He is a Midwest guy. He is a seemingly soft-spoken man who cut his teeth in basketball-crazy Indiana high school and college basketball. But prior to his arrival at Iowa in 2007, Lickliter spent every minute of his playing and coaching career outside of a BCS conference. Some might be surprised to hear that Lickliter has been coaching basketball for 32 years. He spent 12 years coaching high school basketball in Indiana, one year overseas coaching a club team in Saudi Arabia, two years at Eastern Michigan as an assistant coach, and 11 years at Butler (6 years as head coach), and now he's in his third year at Iowa. Lickliter has been successful at every stop but Iowa has proved to be, by far, his greatest challenge. Is he in over his head at a large state school like Iowa, which has a student enrollment that is nearly seven times greater than Butler? Is he uncomfortable outside of the basketball confines of Indiana? Is he better suited at the mid-major level? These are all legitimate questions that have yet to be answered for some, and clearly answered for others. Other questions about Lickliter have centered on his ability to serve as the Pied Piper of Iowa basketball. Does Lickliter have the charisma and zeal needed to lead an attitude change and reenergize a fan base about a product that has been in decline since, Scott Dochterman suggests, as far back as Raef Lafrentz's rejection of a scholarship offer from Dr. Tom Davis in favor of playing at Kansas.

System

When Iowa hired Todd Lickliter he made it clear they were hiring more than a coach, they were hiring a cultural overseer who would introduce a philosophy and system of organizing and playing basketball that was proven beyond his personal efforts. He worked in a method that had been built in a program that had to face many of the same challenges that Iowa faces. Lickliter would be bearing the gift of a whole new way of structuring the basketball program--a structure, Gary Barta told us, that would be a natural fit for Iowa and last for years. However, some now wonder if Lickliter's system is beneath a program of the stature and history of Iowa. Also, some wonder if this system is really a system at all? Perhaps what Lickliter had a Butler was merely a very appropriate plan that is utterly unique to Butler, one that doesn't travel well, if at all. Outside of the Butler history and Indiana small callege milieu is it a viable "way" at all?

Crystal-ball_medium

What to do, what to do?

Todd Lickliter is in his third year and has a contract that ends in 2014. There is a provision in that contract which states that at the end of this year Lickliter and Barta must discuss an extension. Is Todd Lickliter deserving of an extension? Did he inherit a program so downtrodden that its basketball problems were deeper than anyone could have imagined and are only now evident? Is Iowa beginning, ever so slightly, to make the strides under Lickliter and his system to emerge from the years of dysfunction and underachievement? Or should Lickliter be a transitional figure, much like George Raveling might have been for Dr. Tom Davis? Is Iowa stuck? Does Barta need to merely let this play out over the next two or three years, regardless of fan input, despite early returns in his investment in Lickliter that suggest things might not be totally on track?

Poll
Iowa basketball is:
A mess and I am not convinced of the direction it is going.
282 votes
Is improving but is not where it should be after almost three years.
243 votes
Is right on track given what bad shape it was in.
98 votes
Is ahead of pace all things considered and has turned the corner.
11 votes

634 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 70 comments |

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SMA will likely blow this statement up, but

I think the damage Alford did was underestimated, but we’ll know for sure if that’s the case this time next season. If we’re .500 or so and have been competitive throughout conference play this time next year, I think most would agree that’s moving in the right direction.

I think we also underestimate the fact that Iowa is, without a doubt, a school where basketball ranks third at best, and that impacts what the basketball program is able to do with regards to recruiting and retaining talent. Lickliter could do a whole lot better than he’s done, and he’s made several questionable moves regarding his handling of his players as well as the media, but I don’t think he rises to the level of being fired just yet.

by benvious on Feb 25, 2010 1:38 PM CST reply actions  

I don't really know how much long lasting damage Alford did...

he didn’t leave the program under NCAA sanctions, we didn’t lose scholarships or anything. But the psyche of the program might have been very seriously destroyed. I just don’t know.

I do know this. It was only after 2000 or so that we started to see any hint of a decline in basketball attendance. Before that, wrestling never would outdraw basketball for a season and only would occasionally outdraw them for an individual meet/game…and, in fact, we were Top 25 in the country in basketball attedance. It was not unusual for 15K to show up to see Howard lose by 33 in the Amana Hawkeye Classic.

I believe that if Iowa was in the NCAA tournament three out of every five years and advancing to the second rounds 1/2 the time, and in the NIT one of the other two years that we would see 13K-15K in CHA. There is not much live entertainment to compete with a winning basketball team in Iowa.

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

One other quick poiint...

I wonder how many people would have seen Iowa being as dominant as they are right now in wrestling after where they were right before Brands came on board? I, for one, thought the day of Iowa just shit kicking the rest of the NCAA was O-V-E-R. My point is that, if there is a recent history of success here or having done it, then there is no reason to believe we cannot replicate it. To me, 2001 is not that long ago.

I think Lickliter left Butler to come here because he thought he would have a better chance at NCAA Tournament success. That looks rediculous now that Butler is the new Gonzaga…but…

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh

and I also think Lickliter came here for the money.

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, you are right

Do you think he looks longingly at Butler’s 81-12 (so far) record since he’s left, in a private moment?

by Santos Sorrow on Feb 25, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe the solace of his bank account helps to keep him warm.

by txhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe Lick did too.

And I can actually see that happeneing in 2-3 years, once these young kids have had more than a year to run the system the way it should be ran. It’s been stated numerous times that this system is setup to be learned in a kids freshman and sophmore years and shown the greatness of it in their junior and senior years. If Licks still here 2 years from now and everyone is still together as a team, I could see a Sweet 16 out of them.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope so

the challenge is getting the fan base to wait. There is a point of diminishing returns. So far, he is the only Big Ten coach whose fan base has bailed on him to this extent. Even Zook couldn’t destroy ticket sales for Illinois football. It’s a serious thing the fan exodus.

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

One good season

and they will all come back. Heck, if they bust out of the gate 5-0 next year we’ll see CHA well populated for game 6. The fans are just waiting for a reason.

The attendance isn’t just a reaction to Lick’s teams, it is a reaction to what was happening before he got here. Fans get sick of the spending time and money to watch a team lose. Any new coach would get a curiosity bump at first, but by 1/2 way through if things were still sucky, the attendance would be too.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

As you stated up above

that exodus started when [Name Redacted] started losing the fans. I also believe, and tell me if I’m wrong, that at one point during his tenure, ticket prices went up considerably over the course of three or so years.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know...I do think his personality

turned some people off though. More than even his record even. I also don’t think the fans will just come back. Without a second round vist in the tournament we will not see 15K at CHA for some time.

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

100% agree with that.

I would almost think a deep NIT run would get alot of them back.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

[Name Redacted] put this progam into an abyss that I don’t think many people realized. I don’t know if anyone on here ever met the guy, but my experience was that in person he was a pretentious dick (Yes, I have met him.). If he’s like that to general public, imagine how he was to his players.

I believe the transfer issues, minus Jake’s, came from having a coach who let you do whatever you wanted on the court, to a coach who believes in a system and wants his team to run it his way.

IMHO, Lick now has a group of guys who understand this and that are learning that the team comes first. I hope all these kids stay with this system and believe in what Lick has shown them, because if so, in 2 years they will be a force to be reckoned with.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll back you up on that assessment of Alford

I was a server/bartender at Okoboji Grill for a couple years while I was in school at Iowa (worked there ‘02 to ’04). The basketball team would come in about once a month for lunch or dinner, and they would usually be seated in my section. Alford was a total prick to everyone, let the players (Boyd, Brunner, Horner, et al) get really rowdy and obnoxious, and the student team manager would always apologize profusely for everyone’s (especially the coach’s) behavior when they left.
True story, one time they came in for dinner on a really busy Friday night. Every player and coach has to sign a sheet next to their name so it can get comped by the athletic department. Well, Pierre Pierce was listed on the official roster, but he was suspended at the time and thus was not there. However, his name was signed on the sheet. My manager pulled me aside and asked who was not with the team. So I looked around and lo and behold, one Nate Kaeding, kicker extraordinaire for the football team, had signed in place of Pierre Pierce and was getting a free meal paid for by the athletic department.

Anyway, point is, you can’t just let your team, representing the university, go around to local restaurants (not even on campus, no less) and act like total douchebags. And this is just one place they went to. I’m sure there are plenty of other stories.

by HawkgirlSTL on Feb 25, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

just had to comment

That I am reading this while eating at Shorts. The Kaeding tie deserved mentioning.

by PackerHawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Forgot to mention

For comparison’s sake, I also had Kirk Ferentz and his family in my section the day after Thanksgiving 2002. Yeah, that year. Just won a Big Ten title and all that. I remember because I had to drive from my grandparents’ house in southwest Iowa to Iowa City in three hours and got my one and only speeding ticket of my entire life (despite routinely going at least 10mph over at all times). He and his family could not have been nicer to me. Kirk also left me a rather large tip (if I remember correctly, it was in about the 25% range of probably a $200 tab). In summary, Ferentz=Class act; Alford=D-Bag

by HawkgirlSTL on Feb 25, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

re: left a rather large tip

tee hee hee

"We just forgot our pants. Nothing against the team or anything like that." -- take a guess

by jtothep on Feb 25, 2010 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Douche-y {name redacted}

I never had the displeasure of having a conversation with {name redacted}, but I did nearly get run down by him in his car. I was crossing the street, in the crosswalk I’ll add, going from the Engineering building towards the Old Capitol Mall. {name redacted} came tearing around the corner without even so much as a quick look to see if his turn was clear. He nearly nailed me with his front bumper, but I was fortunate to have been paying attention and was able to jump out of the way. He was forced to stop so I could finish getting out of the way of his vehicle. Because of this, he gave me, the person he had just nearly killed, the finger and yelled for me to “get the f**k out of [his] way”.
You’d think that a person driving on a heavily pedestrian populated campus would drive a little more carefully, but the sense of entitlement that douche had was so large it could fill Carver-Hawkeye.

by hawkeyenick on Feb 25, 2010 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Alford's mother is even a pretentious dick

She came in and freaked the fuck out at Best Buy when I worked there — tried to use his credit card, was refused because it was BB policy to not allow that, and threw a fucking fit. “DO YOU KNOW WHO MY SON IS???” “Yes, ma’am, and while we don’t give a rat’s ass who your son is, it isn’t allowed by Best Buy.” If he was half as bad as she was that day, I can only assume he was the same person. I’m glad Hair Gel Steve is gone, and I can’t WAIT to watch New Mexico get lit the fuck up by real basketball teams in the Dance.

by imadirtyoldman on Feb 25, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Not surprising.

Sam Alford must either be the biggest dick of them all or the family whipping boy.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Extension? After this year?

There’s no way Bloodpunch is doing that.

Did we understimate the degree of culture shock felt by two Indiana hires who probably never imagined coaching at a school where basketball wasn’t the be-all, end-all?

Excuse me for my bellicosity. And spelling. Bellicosity and spelling.

by Blackheartnopants on Feb 25, 2010 1:45 PM CST reply actions  

One More Year

“Welcome to Iowa. You have 3 years or we fire your ass.”

That’s going to make us real attractive. Not giving what potential new coaches see as a fair chance will doom this program. He needs to break over .500 next year though.

Also, having the endorsement of Brands and Ferentz as far as “doing things the right way” (wish I had the link handy) carries some weight. I’d rather be decent with an honorable coach than win a lot with a douchebag. The idea of representing the University and by extension the State in a manner we can all be proud of may be quaint, but it means something to me.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 2:07 PM CST reply actions  

Would you buy season tickets to this?

Because that is what it will come down to. I don’t believe even Barta believes that Lickliter is the last honorable coach in America willing to take our millions to coach Iowa basketball. I don’t think the stain is permanent. We cannot and could not get an elite coach to come here, not like in football. But could we go head to head with St. John’s for a coach? Or Georgia or Virginia even? Yeah, I think we could. Still.

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Would you buy season ticket just because there is a new coach?

Barring Phil Jackson deciding he wants to move to the area, next year season ticket sales are shot no matter what.

I would even argue that Lick gives us a better chance at winning next year because a new coach = new system that Lick’s recruits may not be well suitedfor anyway. So then you have another couple years of blah while HIS recruits mature.

I definitely overstated my case above. The fat salary available will be a powerful lure to any candidate, and there are good ones out there. I guess I’m just a “better the devil you know” type person on this one.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

RE: competing with the likes of Virginia...

I’m curious. There were persistent rumors that Iowa pursued Kevin Stallings at Vandy last time, but obviously nothing came of that. If he was offered the job and turned it down, though, what does that say? Is Vandy really a better basketball program than Iowa? Or maybe the question should be – is the potential at Vandy better than the potential at Iowa, since their program is clearly far, far better than Iowa’s is now.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe it just means

that he’s waiting for a slot an an elite program to open up and would rather wait for that. Or maybe he just doesn’t want to live in Iowa. One coach not being interested is probably meaningless.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

See, I think we COULD get someone really good

If we are willing to put up with the ego… there are people out there that might be considered “almost elite” that figure if they can turn Iowa around and make it a serious winner that they have a better shot at elite status than continuing to pound their head against the Dean Smith ceiling. Like a basketball equivalent of Hayden Fry.

I realize we tried that with the Fraud and crashed and burned… but, I think the mistake there was hiring a Big 10 insider so to speak. Sometimes, people flourish better outside of their native conference.

I’m not a TL fan, I don’t think He’s The Answer. But I think any really good coach can win if he’s willing to adjust his system to the talent he has, rather than force the talent to fit the system. Look (admittedly he’s had probably the most awesome player in modern history in MJ) how Phil Jackson has been able to win in CHI and LA with the triangle offense and wholesale personnel changes (except with the constants of MJ and KB in each place respectively). I’m certainly no basketball expert, but it seems like he has been able to adjust what he does with both teams to fit the players available.

Its almost like Iowa went too far the other way with TL in trying to find someone with most unFraud-like personality possible. And I also think – much to our chagrin – that the Fraud will return to IU after his penance in NM has been duly satisfied and Crean crashes and burns. Hopefully we’ll have a good team by that time and can fully enjoy booing his arrogant ass and kicking his team’s head in every time they show up in Carver.

My blog: http://www.gretainthebox.com

by Leftcoast Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

And P.S.

If we think we are suffering now, think of how the IU fans are suffering, and have been since Bobby Knight was shown the door. They are suffering through the equivalent of our dark decades of Iowa football after Evy.

So, we are not alone… and in the meantime, we have the best college wrestling team on Planet Earth and what I think is a top 15 football program as long as KF wants to stay here. Really really.

My blog: http://www.gretainthebox.com

by Leftcoast Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Um,

IU played in the National Championship Final with Mike Davis as head coach. He used Knight’s (well coached) players and didn’t last much longer, but they did have that kind of run in there.

IU’s demise was in hiring a coach with a series of violations and somehow, expected that he would somehow be different. That’s what IU is recovering from now.

by hdhawk on Feb 25, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Some numbers

I stumbled across attendance numbers at the official hawkeye sports site. There’s an 87 page PDF. Out of 31 years of attendance figures for home games listed (page 30) , the bottom seven are 03, 04, 07, 06, 05, 08, 09.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

ball don't lie

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Feb 25, 2010 10:31 PM CST up reply actions  

At what point do you say that it's just not acceptable to have a .428 winning percentage in three years?

All situations and excuses aside, with how the program as a BRAND is viewed now in the eyes of fans and outsiders alike, with Lickliter being in a results-driven industry, how can you justify any sort of extension?

I guess you can call me impatient or just a flat-out dick, but if you come walking in here with the creditentials that Lickliter had and toss up some bullshit like the last three years, that just doesn’t sit too well for me.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

11 & 24

Take one guess who’s numbers those are for the first 3 years. Granted year 3 was 7-5 with a happy ending.

So it’s about more than just raw numbers.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I can agree to it being more than raw numbers

So if we go that route, then I must have forgotten that KF was a National Coach of the Year at his previous job. Or that he won eight postseason games in four postseason tournaments.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Apples and oranges, although I’ve made the same comparison.

85 scholarship players, recruiting classes of 20+, 80% of whom take a redshirt year v. 12 (15?) scholarship players, 2-4 per year. In year 3 of a basketball program my concern is you are what your record says you are. That would be 3-11 in conference. They’ve beaten teams with conf records of 2-13, 3-11, and 6-9. I’m willing to be drawn back in, but have passed into the camp believing this isn’t going to work. I expect 1-2 more years of slightly worse than mediocre then parting. That means what? 4 more years of being irrelevant?

by txhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

It is apples and oranges

I’ll admit that. My point was just that you can’t only look at the W-L’s of his first three seasons and make a decison.

Even the best players and coaches have slumps. Lick has a track record of success and while his performance so far has been unacceptable, it hasn’t been a complete OMFG disaster either.

In 100 years, we'll all be dead.

by Flakbait on Feb 25, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

It's generally considered EASIER to win more quickly in basketball than football.

Since 1-2 players can turn around a basketball team and it takes a lot more than that in football.

Meanwhile, Lickliter is on pace to post his worst record yet here this year, barring an incredible winning streak to finish up the season.

I’m not in favor of bailing on him after this season unless there’s another wave of transfers, but next year absolutely must be the make or break season for him. And giving him an extension would be disastrous. The PR hit Bloodpunch and Iowa would take from that would overshadow whatever value it would have in placating potential recruits.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

1-2 players

can have an immediate impact, but we don’t have them. I think it’s been years since we’ve had an instant impact player of any sort. Down the road, fine, but we’re not enough of a basketball state to have a phenomenally talented guy come to the program because of the name.

It never gets to be easy

by chitownhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 5:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Also, one other thing

I fear for the day when we sit back and say “Well gosh darn, we went 17-16 this year. You know what that means? Progress!”

(cue Junior Senior)

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's all hope that that happens this time next year.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

How is that not progress?

No one’s going to be saying, “Fuck yes, over .500 basketball, we’re finally BACK!” But going .500 would represent improvement from the past three years, which would certainly be positive.

If you’re suggesting that going 17-16 would become some sort of new high water mark, that’s asinine. But shitting all over a 17-16 season isn’t going to help anything, either. Unless the next Harrison Barnes shows up on campus, any progress this program makes is going to be fairly incremental.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Exponential progress can be made with the right coach and system and as fans, I happen to believe that we shouldn’t accept the kind of incremental progress. I mean, we’re talking about “moral victories” in the face of defeats in the third year. We joke about the jNW empty seats being actual jNW fans when we know that’s 3/4 of CHA the past couple of years. That’s us now!

How can Matt Painter take over a program that won seven games the year before he arrived, win nine his first year there and then never finish below 20 games each year after that? Robbie Hummel and Co. are good, but Purdue isn’t stocked with multiple McDonald’s All-Americans.

"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."

by Twin Cities Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

He didn't have as bare a cupboard at Purdue...

IU is down, Indiana is a basketball state, and he didn’t have mass exodus problems like we’ve had. As Iowa, we are going to have to work 2x as hard to be half as good as most basketball schools. That’s reality. With the foundation Fry laid and KF has built on, we’ve been able to pull that effort/results ratio a lot closer to 1:1 in football.

For example, we’ve had great players in the past on offense and defense, but I would argue that AC could have a season this fall that in some aspects – considering its a lot more difficult on defense to even sniff NYC and the Heisman – that makes him a more solid Heisman contender than Long was. There’s no Tebow this year to get the sportswriter’s pants all tight, and statistically, it just feels to me we are overdue to see a dominant defensive player win the Heisman this next year (in the absence of an offensive player that shines way above everyone else).

But fuck the Heisman. I’m like the supposed DJK twitter – let’s win all the marbles next year and be an underdog all the way. :)

My blog: http://www.gretainthebox.com

by Leftcoast Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Whether or not TL is ever going to be a success at Iowa...

I don’t think you give his eventual replacement the best chance to succeed by blowing things up after this season. I think Iowa would be better served to remove any possible stumbling blocks to attracting a high-level coach, whether that’s poor facilities or the notion that the administration won’t support you if things don’t go well immediately.

Yes, the basketball program is losing money and likely to do so next year as well, but the only sort of coaches who are going to immediately reverse that trend are exactly the sort of coach that isn’t going to take the job. No hot shit Painter-type assistant is going to produce a ticket sellout next year; this fanbase has been burned too badly and became too apathetic after Alford and Lickliter.

In the interim, I don’t see the problem with embracing whatever incremental progress we can get along the way.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

No, Robbie Hummel

JuJuan Johnson, E’Twan Moore and Scott Martin were not McD AA’s, but they are very, very good basketball players. Painter spent full year as a Keady assitant before taking over. Was that spent on scouting reports? No, that was spent putting together a great, great recruiting class. That’s what’s been driving their success with Painter – a great class surrounded by solid role players filling in the gaps.

by hdhawk on Feb 25, 2010 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the "but Brands and Ferentz like him" defense is overplayed, too.

They like him because he’s a nice guy (I don’t think anyone would dispute that) with a personality that fits in well around Iowa City and because he has a system that worked. But they know wrestling and they know football. They do not know basketball. Plenty of nice guys with systems that worked in one place have struggled to make that system work elsewhere. It doesn’t mean that they’re awful coaches, but it does mean that they can’t be successful everywhere.

Hell, even as successful as Brands and Ferentz have been, I’m not sure that they’d be as successful everywhere, especially Ferentz. (Brands is probably more likely to be a success anywhere, although his personality and style would be the exact opposite of a place like Oklahoma State, so you never know.) Ferentz is a great coach… but he’s also a great fit for Iowa and Iowa City. Would he be as good in the pressure-cooker of Los Angeles at USC or in Ann Arbor at Michigan? I dunno.

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Its also very politically correct to support him

Because it reflects poorly on their programs, themselves, and the UI to say anything else, really. If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all, and it makes them look silly if they say “Well, our basketball coach sucks, but hey, if you play the sport I coach, you should come HERE!”

Ross, great comment about KF. I tend to agree… he would not have the success at UM or USC that he has here. Completely different atmospheres. Ever since Bo called it quits, while Moeller had some great success, Michigan just hasn’t been the same… even though they’ve had some great years, they feel like a hollow giant to me.

Look what’s happening to Dick Rod right now. Sometimes leaping for the Big Money/Perceived Bigger Time isn’t the right move for a given coach. I think Dick Rod would have a much stronger team at WVU had he stayed true to his word and kept his ass stuck in Morgantown.

OSU, OTOH, had a great coach in Cooper, whose greatest sin was not beating the dogpiss out of UM regularly… with Sweatervest, they’ve found a Solution and he was home-grown from up the road at Youngstown State.

My blog: http://www.gretainthebox.com

by Leftcoast Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Brands and Ferentz would never, in a million years, say a bad word about Lickliter if they didn't care for him or his style.

They just wouldn’t say anything about him, or they would offer the plainest, most non-commital answers possible if asked about him. I don’t recall ever hearing them speak out in support of Alford (although, in Brands’ case, their tenures barely overlapped). (And Brands even made a few not-so-thinly-veiled comments disparaging Alford, at least in comparison to Lickliter, earlier this year.)

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

One thought on the talent level...

I frequently see similar analysis on various Hawkeye message boards. “What do you mean we don’t have Big 10 talent? Gatens, Fuller, May, etc…”

I agree wholeheartedly that all of the players you listed are “Big 10 talent”, in a manner of speaking. Popular as it is to criticize the talent level on this team, it’s not like we’ve got 5 John Lickliter’s running around out there. Where I diverge (and I’m not saying you necessarily went this far) is the conclusion that having 4-5 Big 10 caliber players means that we’re fine talent wise. With the exception of Fuller (and probably Gatens for most teams) we don’t have guys that are Big 10 caliber starters. Cully Payne and Eric May wouldn’t be doing anything other than coming off the bench for a good Big 10 team.

So while we’re not completely hopeless from a talent perspective, I just don’t think that we have the talent level to compete with the upper tier conference teams and make the post-season.

by MikeyJoe18 on Feb 25, 2010 3:21 PM CST reply actions  

I tend to agree with that.

We need to hope that (1) the guys here continue to improve (Payne and May in particular) and that some of the incoming freshmen are also good enough to be B10-caliber starters (not necessarily right away next year, but good enough to provide solid minutes next year and become starters within a few years).

"I want to be a cowboy. I don't want to be a panda. Pandas are boring, stupid and boring. Bad panda!"

by RossWB on Feb 25, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Slight problem w/ your point, Mikey

Payne and May are fine in this SYSTEM. They aren’t supposed to be starting yet. They’re supposed to be starting in 2 years, when they’re both Juniors.

Besides, it isn’t necessarily the starting 5 that’s the problem. It’s the lack of depth to support the starters. Nobody can look at Iowa’s reserves and be confident. Nobody. What Iowa needs is the same level of guys as they currently have, maybe a tiche better, and move the weakest links down the bench a bit. Then wait a year until everybody’s at least a sophomore, and see if the team shows marked improvement.

TL needs two years. Next year should be a 5-6 win improvement to keep his job, then .500+ in the 2nd to keep it moving forward. IMO, at least.

by imadirtyoldman on Feb 25, 2010 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

No question (to quote KF) depth is a problem.

Even if we’d had two relatively crappy players with size and some skills, having them available late in games (for defensive purposes) might have given us 2-3 wins this year. The defections have really hurt, regardless of whether the players were a good match for the system or not.

My blog: http://www.gretainthebox.com

by Leftcoast Hawk on Feb 25, 2010 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

5 years to get to .500? Look, I think he’ll get 2 years, but that is what we are? Lickliter’s getting paid $1.2 million per to take 5 years to get to a non-losing record? At some point we have to stop making excuses for him. There are 5,000 people at games. It’s a joke and some of it has to be his fault. Name redacted has been gone 3 years. It’s Lick’s program now and the current state of the program is squarely on him.

by txhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

True, but....

You can’t place all of the deflections on his shoulders. You can’t. He lost guys that Hair Gel Steve recruited. And note that not a single one of them is really “excelling” at their new stop. Furthermore, it isn’t like the guys after those deflections were quality guys either.

I mean come on Tex, what do you want from TL? To come in, bring a top 5 recruiting class with him, and instantly pop out a winner? That’s not going to happen. And if you assume that the building blocks are in place NOW (which you may not), don’t you also have to see if the leftover pieces were worthy of building on? Because that’s what I’m doing. The last three years, TL has had to replace EVERYBODY from Hair Gel Steve’s last squad. Literally, everybody.

With that bare of a cupboard, doesn’t he deserve a few years to get things back on track? Meaning, more than 3? Or do you think Iowa is such a hot-spot for basketball protege’s that TL should be able to waltz into the local Tipton gym, pick up the best guy from that team, and instantly make the Final 4? That’s an insane proposition, sir. 5 years is a long time, yeah, but when you consider what he had to start with, it makes a bit more sense.

by imadirtyoldman on Feb 25, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

This is exactly what I was thinking.

Rec to you sir.

With the deflections that TL had to deal with, you have to find somebody to fill that spot that has played some good minutes, i.e. JuCo players, to give your freshman and sophmores the time it takes to learn.

"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me

by BStylin Hawkye on Feb 25, 2010 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I think he’ll get 5 years. I also think he’ll top out at Iowa at .500 overall and less than .500 in conference. I don’t hope this. Watching the last 2 years overall I think that’s what his preferred style of play in this conference will produce. That won’t put butts in the seats. Iowa has proven they’ll pay a coach the going rate which will attract somebody who is ambitious and has enough charisma to reenergize and inject life into this thing – if Bloodpunch or his predecessor makes a hire that is a better fit. I guess I’m with Stoops below – ultimately I think Lickliter will be the bridge to whatever comes next, a transitional figure after Alford disgusted the constituency. But if that’s right, we have another 3 years of shit. Irrelevancy, pathetic attendance, and 200 Illini students able to take over the arena. It’s fucking ridiculous and painful to watch.

by txhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Also another problem I have with the state of our program...

Do a find on these page and see how many times the word “System” is mentioned.

Just sayin’.

by MikeyJoe18 on Feb 25, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Again

Lil John is still getting minutes. That tells me how bad our depth is.

It never gets to be easy

by chitownhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Too much intellectualizing.

True or false: Iowa hasn’t been this bad in basketball since the 1940s.

True or false: We play UNI and we’re the underdog. That would be the Normal College of Teachers, or whatever, up there off 218.

True or false: 10 guys have left the club in three years, and this hasn’t happened in the history of Iowa basketball. (WWII excepted.)

Look, the guy just needs to recruit some good guys, play fun basketball, and get the butts in the seats. If he doesn’t want to do that, he’s in the wrong job. Nobody is saying he has to win the national title. Why make it complicated?

Mr. Boh Knows ...

by Bellanca on Feb 25, 2010 3:59 PM CST reply actions  

The way I look at it

is that it’s not complicated, but it’s also not easy.
I’d guess recruiting is a pretty hard sell right now. Playing fun basketball doesn’t appear to be what he teaches, he seems much more concerned with smart, defensive, fundamental play. Which, Wisconsin has taught me, can be incredibly painful to watch. Butts in seats is a function of losing, both during his years and back through Alford.
One to two of those things (recruiting and attendance) really aren’t fully within his control. To ask him to change the only factor he completely controls, how he teaches the game, at this point in his career beyond minor tweaks to player ability is simply not going to happen.

However, saying this, I don’t think he’s done a good job of utilizing and trying to maximize the guys he does have, and that’s factored into the defections

It never gets to be easy

by chitownhawkeye on Feb 25, 2010 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Talent, Leader, System....

Talent: Suspect and not even close to the upper half of the Big Ten. We know that because of our record. Can Lickliter recruit players that will stay? I don’t think so. Could have used Jake Kelly this year. If he was going to transfer because of the situation with his Mom he would have done it prior to last season. What did Lickliter do to piss him off?

System: It is Horizon League awful. What player wants to play for an offense that scores 35-45 points a game and the coach doesn’t let his players run a fast break? Not any decent Div 1 18 year old. Let’s pass it around the perimeter until 7 on the shot clock and then hoist up a three……..sounds like a great system called twirl and hurl. On defense do we never go to a match up zone or full court press? Nope. Ever heard of a 1-2-2, 1-3-1 trap? I know we don’t have that many players to press but switch it up for fucks sake!!!! We are so predictable it’s unreal. People salivate when they see us on the schedule. WE ARE THE MARATHON OIL OF THE B10.

Leader: Lickliter wasn’t left with much, as everyone has mentioned but this guy was coach of the year?? He has no personality-(Can he relate to anyone besides being as unathletic as Little Licker?) He looks like he is as clueless as Alfraud in crunch time and I see little, to no adjustments made during games. He takes people out when they actually catch a little fire and hit a couple shots?

The Poll shows that Iowa fans are settling for a losing basketball program. I guess if you like getting your ass clowned on every night we should sign Turd Dicklicker to a 20 year contract. We are a Big Ten school with a mid-major coach, system and talent and it is getting real old. Alfraud boned us for years, but now Licker is coming for sloppy seconds with no lube. I can’t watch another year of this awful product. If I was Eric May I would get the fuck out of town while I had 3 years left.

by endo4weeks on Feb 25, 2010 5:21 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

New coach suggestion

Isiah Thomas, bring him in, we’ll be unstoppable

"Go slower" - Todd Lickliter

by MitchWalker on Feb 25, 2010 5:54 PM CST reply actions  

My prediction is that Lickliter is going to be

a transitional figure in Iowa’s basketball history. I just don’t think HE is the right fit for this campus. He is the worng leader. He is the wrong guy. He’s awkward. He’s wierd even. He does not command respect. Every coach that has EVER been hugely successful at Iowa had the kind of personality that commanded respect. You can’t just decide to be that kind of guy.

The feeling around the basketball team really reminds me of when George Raveling was here. There was a disconnect. It wasn’t like Alford. Alford was hated, it was palpable. He outwardly disrespected the school, the fans, and the history here. Raveling just was a guy whose style and way about things was not well understood by Iowa fans. They had a hard time getting over Lute too. But he wanted out and it was a thing that worked for both parties. This Lickliter dude is just a bad fit.

I think the guy can coach. At another school that is more comfortbale for him he will be fine. He just isn’t BIG enough. He seems small to me. His comments are small. His analysis after games is small. He doesn’t wow you in anything he does or says…ever, it seems.

Again, I hope I am wrong. But I have a snaking suspicion I am not.

"I’m sick of following my dreams. I’m just going to ask them where they’re going and hook up with them later." M.H.

by StoopsMyAss on Feb 25, 2010 6:37 PM CST reply actions  

All of this seems to come back to the same old question

of what we want or expect we can get out of an Iowa basketball team. Was wanting more than Dr. Tom could give us unrealistic? Or did we just bring in the wrong guy? One thing is clear— Iowans will not accept an apparent jerk, even if he wins.

A really good piece written here some time ago suggested that the “Todd Lickliter experience” is an attempt to model our football program. It appears that way in many respects. Unfortunately, football is quite different. An army of overahievers has a different effect than 3 or 4 in a 5-man game. If you only intend to only score 55 in basketball, you had better win. Further, to what extent must we “settle” ? Raveling proved that you can bring good enough players to Iowa to win it all, but he couldn’t coach them. Dr. Tom nearly got them there, but couldn’t get the same overall quality of players himself, in part I think because his system may have been seen as too confining to star players. Lickliter is also a system guy, though his system is even more deliberate. Even Bobby Knight had his “system” but he had the good sense to let Isiah loose.

I’m just not convinced about Lickliter but I think there still is a small window where we can see if the heralded incoming class can prove that talent better than Butler can do something using that system in the Big Ten. That’s because I don’t see a real power structure in the Big Ten, and living in Pac-10 country, I am watching what happens when the established power for years, Lute Olson’s Arizona, falls from the top. I see only Michigan State as a real year in-year out juggernaut. Indiana is down, Wisconsin is good, but frankly they remind me of Dr. Tom’s Iowa teams. Purdue is really good but I think the jury is still out on whether they will be good year-in and year-out. A good coach can still be lured to a place like Iowa to build a power in the Big Ten. But that won’t last forever, and having CHA look like Welsh-Ryan stadium will only be tolerated for so long.

Look, I like the guy, I feel for how he appears to be suffering for losing, and I hope with better talent he can make his system work or better yet, develop good enough players to “let loose”. But I just can’t shake the feeling that with his system, Iowa answered that first question in the affirmative. While I don’t think I have delusions of grandeur, I’m not ready to accept that answer, and I don’t think the rest of us are, either.

(Sorry, this has some similar themes to SMA’s post I just got, but I’m posting it anyway.)

by Mr. Grizz on Feb 25, 2010 6:45 PM CST reply actions  

The thing is, though is KF had us winning big by Year 4.

There’s really nothing on this team to suggest that next year will be much, if any different.

I just find it completely puzzling why we can’t get 8 decent players and a couple of stars – they don’t even have to be big name guys – to come here and play and win. Football is much, much tougher logistically, to put together and keep together a winning program. You look at the top programs this last decade and its pretty much the same group, but basketball seems (to me) like its all over spectrum. Even ho-hum schools, with the right players, always seem to rise up in the Dance and take some bites of ass.

Tonight’s game indicates to me that the team has given up and hell, we might as well forfeit the remaining games and save everyone a lot of suffering.

My blog: http://www.gretainthebox.com

by Leftcoast Hawk on Feb 26, 2010 12:43 AM CST reply actions  

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