The Real Price of Freedom

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 25, 2009 11:50 AM CDT in News Comment 60 comments

"Freedom isn't free." That's a line most commonly associated with, in order, military veterans and Team America: World Police. And as long as you equate America's foreign interests with "freedom," that statement holds up well (whose freedom, exactly, we've been fighting for post-WWII is another matter entirely, but let's not get bogged down on that right away).

As you're no doubt aware, Ed Thomas, one of the finest men in the state (either associated with athletics or otherwise) and a most worthy namesake of Ed Thomas Field, was killed when a very disturbed young man--one who probably shouldn't have been on the streets, but for a rather serious clerical error--unloaded his gun into Thomas at point blank range. All of this happened as Thomas was supervising weightlifting for at least a couple dozen of his students. Most saw it happen. And a community still trying to rebuild from tragedy has lost the one man it had come to depend on the most, even before the PF5 tornado flattened half of the town.

All of this is to say, it was one of the most horrific, senseless gun crimes in our country, not matching in scope (but certainly in brutality) the massacres at Virginia Tech or even Columbine.

And it is the real price of freedom in America.

We take many things for granted here. That's not a blanket "Americans are stupid and lazy" statement, it's an unavoidable fact whenever freedoms like ours have been an integral part of society, some of which long outdate our oldest living relatives. White Americans have never had to fight for the right to assemble, and even the vast majority of our black readership was never involved in Selma or the other protests that turned violent at the whims of police. Our country never had to endure a struggle for things the vast majority of the world would kill for, things like stringent building and electrical codes, beer, the FDA, Social Security, the Second Amendment, the rest of the Bill of Rights, free representative democracy, DirecTV, ordering pizza online, even potable running water. We would--probably rightly--laugh at a fifth-generation American adult who every day thanked his lucky stars that he can turn a faucet and drink what comes out. We probably wouldn't do the same to a recent, say, Ugandan refugee. Or Bangladeshi. Whatever; the geography isn't important, the relative poverty is.

So as we take these things for granted, it becomes easier by the day to not consider them, their advantages, and yes, their drawbacks. Take, for example, the Second Amendment, the right to bear arms. By itself, it's one of the cornerstones of American democracy and the reason why any country who decided to invade America would immediately regret setting one foot into Texas. It cannot and must not be repealed (or even significantly altered), or all holy hell breaks loose.

Also, take the First Amendment. Free speech (and all of the consequences it carries, good and bad) is essential for any democracy. So is the right to peaceably assemble. This may seem like a middle-school civics lesson, but for an example of what happens in a modern country where those rights aren't guaranteed, we'd like to point you to Iran and the current shitcyclone enveloping the country. Again, this cannot and must not be repealed (or even significantly altered), or all holy hell breaks loose.

Those two fundamental rights of our country, separately, are invaluable and indispensable and two of several reasons America became what it was and perhaps still is: the finest country in the world. The First Amendment, of course, was much more instrumental in this than the Second, though the need for a well-armed militia was much greater when the Bill of Rights was first written.

Put them together, the ability to own a gun and the ability to congregate or otherwise freely go about your life (again, it might sound weird, but this is not a universal right) about town, and there are going to be situations, ones that are so extremely rare that they're still newsworthy every time they happen, where someone who really doesn't deserve it is shot and killed by someone with a mere predilection toward violence. You cannot have the Bill of Rights and not have the possibility for this to happen. Freedom isn't free.

Yes, we have stringent laws against dangerous behavior with guns, to the point that Plaxico Burress got himself in more trouble by hiding his gun in New Jersey than by going Cheddar Bob in New York. State lines and all. But to someone with the intention of shooting another person, punishment is clearly not always an adequate deterrent. Even if the assailant's even considering the resultant prison sentence (if they're caught and convicted), it's a tradeoff many have clearly chosen to take.

We cannot stop gun violence in this country without a domestic Taliban-style crackdown, one that has no plausible chance of success whatsoever. It is the real price we pay for every advantage, the ones we hold dear and the ones we take for granted. The true cruelty of this tradeoff is that unlike our volunteer army, Ed Thomas did not choose to die for freedom. Nor, for that matter, did he die in defense of it, merely because of it.

And too often, especially after 9/11, our choices have been in favor of senses of security over these freedoms, when this is the precise time when our rights need our most vigorous defense. Let it not happen here. Let us mourn Ed Thomas as the truly wonderful, inspirational man he was. And let us not be so cowed into fear by whatever message a troubled Mark Becker wanted to send with a senseless murder that we either lose our rights or our ability and desire to exercise them.

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well said..

very well said…

Greg Jennings.. Future All Pro

by mkcubs21 on Jun 25, 2009 12:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Very well said.

I’ve always believed that using a tragedy to advance a political position (either pro- or anti- gun control) to be the height of crass, obscene posturing. There’s a time and a place for discussion, using the deaths of others while the pain is still fresh is not that time.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Jun 25, 2009 12:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Nicely done, OPS.

by Bucketochicken on Jun 25, 2009 12:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't agree with you more

But I don’t think anyone else could have said it as eloquently. Great piece.

by TrueAndValiant on Jun 25, 2009 1:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ummmmm

The USA is the greatest country, because people can have guns? Really? People really believe this?
If you woke up from a comma after 15 years, and guns had been banned, the US would now be ranked behind Chad at No. 87 in the world rankings? Just because we can’t own guns anymore? I just don’t buy that….

I also think it’s silly to even mention the 1st and 2nd Amendments in the same breath. Doesn’t the 1st seem to be MUCH more important and vital to what the US is? Don’t citizens in other countries, almost daily throughout the world, fight Civil wars over what the 1st Amendment represents?
Wouldn’t it be funny to see a Civil War based on gun ownership?
You can’t really believe that because so many people own guns, we’re somehow a “tough” country for people wishing to do us harm. Do you? This isn’t the 1800’s.
See: 9/11 – You think those dudes were worried about gun toting Texans before attacking us? Not a chance.

I like the post and I guess I get where you’re coming from. However, this idea that we have this fundamental right to own guns in this country is just as ridiculous as when people thought they had a fundamental right to own slaves.

The evidence is overwhelming that guns are a determent to our society and things need to change.

by Stein on Jun 25, 2009 2:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That's a pretty willful misreading of all of this.

Guns don’t make this country great, and they’re terribly dangerous. I’ll never own a handgun and I’d better not ever see someone else bring one into my home.

That said, they’re enough of a piece of this country and its Constitution that there is no political, practical, or even logistical way to get rid of them. You try it, you invite even more disaster than what already transpires. Sorry, but that’s the truth.

I also think it’s silly to even mention the 1st and 2nd Amendments in the same breath. Doesn’t the 1st seem to be MUCH more important and vital to what the US is?

Um, yes? Why would you gather otherwise from my post? The only reason they’re both mentioned is that they’re concurrent rights exercised every day in this country. They don’t exist in vacuums. The confluence of these two is what I was talking about. Chill.

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 25, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We can do it!

“political, practical, or even logistical way to get rid of them”
-I’m assuming you mean guns?

Think about the dipshit that walked into a boardroom one day and said “we don’t have enough TV channels. I’m tired of 4,6,8,14, & Aux. Plus, bunny ears are just a pain in the ass. Lets lay wire to every house in American, so we can give the public what they need. More TV Channel!!!”

If this great country can figure out a way to bring 300 shitty cable channels to every man and women and child, by wire, to his GIANT country. I have faith then, that we can figure out a way to remove the 7 billion handguns in a respectful manner.

Or, maybe I’m just a dreamer……
:)

by Stein on Jun 25, 2009 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

.....but you're not the only one.

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 25, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are a dreamer.

You don’t know many NRA members I suspect. I’m a gun owner, and happy about it, and I know a lot of people like me… let me tell you getting people to give up their guns would likely be an incredibly bloody affair.

by BryceC on Jun 26, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Note:

If they really did pass legislation to remove guns, I would give mine up. It is what it is and violence is a terrible, terrible thing I would absolutely hate to be in a situation where I had to use a gun against a person. It makes me ill thinking about it. But if there would have been a heady gun owner (who knew how to use it) in Des Moines recently, maybe there would have been a string of sexual assaults avoided.

by BryceC on Jun 26, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

YES, we definetely need more armed vigilantes. That's what I always say.

I see no danger in that at all….

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jun 27, 2009 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Doesn’t the 1st seem to be MUCH more important and vital to what the US is?"

Good luck keeping the 1st amendment without exercising the 2nd amendment.

Look at history and see how long freedom of speech lasted after gun bans (in any from) were put into place.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
- Thomas Jefferson

by Hawkeyewith49Jackrabbits on Jun 25, 2009 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I need an AK47 to protect my family. that's all I need...

…Well, an AK47 and an AR15. That’s all I need.

….Well, I need this. I need an M-16, an AK47, and an AR-15. That’s all I need.

I need this…(I could go on. The point is that there are some weapons that seem a bit unnecessary, no?)

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Jun 25, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which is why the federal government has placed restrictions on AK47s and other fully automatic weapons (not counting “improvised” weapons) to the point where criminals are forced to steal those weapons or buy them from god knows where (and the black market is something that NEVER EVER goes away).

DO YOU HAVE PRIDE, DANNY?

by ReadingRambler on Jun 25, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now, if you'll excuse me

I won’t be posting anymore on this topic.

Good day, chaps.

DO YOU HAVE PRIDE, DANNY?

by ReadingRambler on Jun 25, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting OPS.

Something to chew on. I hadn’t thought of it that way.

Put a tarp on that circus! - showtime @ BSD

by bconway6 on Jun 25, 2009 3:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Outstanding

And, since I haven’t said it before, my condolences to everyone who has by Mr. Thomas and may he himself rest in peace.

DO YOU HAVE PRIDE, DANNY?

by ReadingRambler on Jun 25, 2009 3:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

"who was effected by Mr. Thomas"

DO YOU HAVE PRIDE, DANNY?

by ReadingRambler on Jun 25, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

To some extent I read your post the same way Stein did.

Those two fundamental rights of our country, separately, are invaluable and indispensable and two of the main reasons America became what it was and perhaps still is: the finest country in the world.

That reads to me as somewhat equating the 1st and 2nd amendments as the great pillars of our freedom. I agree that’s going a bit far considering there is far from consensus on what the 2nd Amendment really even means (well-regulated militias and all that). The 1st amendment, conversely, is pretty clear. This country’s obsession with guns, and, in particular, handguns, is disturbing.

I fully agree it’s too late, nor even appropriate, to ban private gun ownership. I also agree, however, that your post reads as a bit of a celebration of that freedom, which admittedly surprised me considering the source.

I don’t mean this thread to become a referendum on gun control, and I fully agree a tragedy of this magnitude should not be used in support of either side of that argument (at least this soon), but, like I said in my subject line, I sort of interpret your post the same way. Sorry if I’m misreading what you are trying to say.

by DonnyDonovan on Jun 25, 2009 4:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Okay, then that's poor wording on my part

and not what I was trying to get out of the post (even though, at its outset and for its explicit purpose, the well-armed militia, the Second Amendment was important at the time). I’ll edit accordingly with your blockquote provided for posterity’s sake.

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 25, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Freedom...

is not just a saying from Mel Gibson in blue paint.

Yesterday, while I was in a temporary depressed state of mind, that we had entered the decadent (declining) era of America. While I am probably happier today than I was yesterday, I ’m not sure I have changed my mind on my statement.

One of the institutions that has always defended our first amendment rights are the media. And when I speak of media, the first things I think about are local newspapers and local television. Anyone who observes either would clearly agree that the financial pressures put on both are forcing them to do less of what they used to do: hold persons, businesses, and local and state governments accountable, especially when those people screwed up.

I have lived my entire life in a small-to-medium sized city in Iowa (yes, the one in my screen name). For a couple dozen years, I never felt a true need to own a gun. I don’t ever see myself owning a hand gun. However, if you look at what the nutbar that killed Ed Thomas did ONLY DAYS BEFORE HE COMMITTED A MURDER, it makes you think that it wouldn’t be the worst idea to have some type of self-defense (yes, probably a gun) in your home. Also, we live in a state and region where there are many rural areas that, in an emergency, the homeowner is basically left to defend himself or herself in the first 15 minutes. Add to that the thousands of hunting enthusiasts. Add to that the fact that eliminating the second amendment would still not retrieve guns from criminals that did not register them in the first place.

While America needs and should keep freedoms, would I mind if mentally unstable people were held for the occasional 48 hours? Probably not. And yes, I mean this even if, for some reason, I was one of them someday.

Does an event that happened yesterday make me wish America was a gun-free zone? Yes. Is that going to happen? No. Are countries that have limited or no citizen gun ownership safer in terms of gun crimes? Yes.

Finally, despite my belief that we are in decline as a country, I will continue to live in America as long as there are two things: Hawkeye football games and J Leman protecting us all.

by WaterlooChazz on Jun 25, 2009 5:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

First: "Also, we live in a state and region where there are many rural areas that, in an emergency, the homeowner is basically left to defend himself or herself in the first 15 minutes"

From what I hear in the metropolis of Charlotte the average police response is a minimum of 10 minutes. Being in a rural area just means when you shoot your shotgun or .22 off your neighbors won’t bitch at you for having a gun to protect yourself. And you don’t have to worry too much about co-lateral damage.

Second: “Are countries that have limited or no citizen gun ownership safer in terms of gun crimes? Yes.”

Britain’s knife crime went up so much after the passed their gun laws that they have advanced knife control. After Australia instituted it’s gun ban, home invasions became more common. Fear controls criminals. They do not want to get shot, plain and simple. And yes fear is a good defense.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
- Thomas Jefferson

by Hawkeyewith49Jackrabbits on Jun 25, 2009 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand and agree somewhat

Having an armed nation has its pros and cons. When a burglar hears a shotgun in an upstairs bedroom, it might make him leave. It might also escalate the situation to where people are lost, not property. While the fear of assaulting an armed man might prevent some crime, it wouldn’t have saved Ed Thomas. I think I know everything… yet I have no answer to the gun problem. I couldn’t tell you which way is best.

I was thinking back to the scene near the end of Friday where Ice Cube’s dad is talking about fighting, guns and such, and actually makes a good point or two. Unfortunately, I can’t think of the quote, so I’ll use one I remember “All day long, foot up a dog’s ass”

by Angle's Dangle on Jun 26, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"it wouldn’t have saved Ed Thomas"

I didn’t mean to imply that it would. This male was going to ‘get’ Ed any way he could that day in my opinion.

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
- Thomas Jefferson

by Hawkeyewith49Jackrabbits on Jun 28, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

An interesting take

I’m busting my BHGP cherry on this post because I think it was worth it. I didn’t read it as OPS saying the right to bear arms is what makes this country so great. We have certain freedoms that we take for granted and sometimes it takes a tragedy like this to remind of that. I’m not a gun owner nor do I ever plan to be one. But, I fully believe gun control laws would not have stopped something like this and similar incidents. If the punishment isn’t enough to deter someone or if they’re not in a mental state to understand the consequence of their actions, not having a gun on hand isn’t going to stop them. They’ll find a way.

by MetsFanVI on Jun 25, 2009 9:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Free speech declining?

In response to the notion that free speech is declining because newspapers and television are going downhill, I would say that we have a freer media than ever before.

The internet, and websites such as this one allow anyone to deliver news and opinion on any subject from anywhere around the world. Websites like twitter have played a major role in bringin information to the world from Iran since traditional news outlets get no access there. Within the next several years its likely that everyone will have full internet and camera capability on their cell phone, turning every citizen into a potential one man news crew.

"Jack Trice Stadium - Easily one of the Top 10 Stadiums in Central Iowa"

by Not Marv Cook on Jun 25, 2009 10:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

"Taliban-style" "since 9/11"

::sigh:: such rhretoric

Gun control advocacy started long before this.

Isn’t the 2nd Amendment more about being able to create a revolutionary army than for individuals to be able to carry guns? “militia” “free state” “the people” Seems like it’s more about a group of people guarding themselves from an oppressive government than a single person being able to shoot a random robber.

I mean, I know it hasn’t been interpreted like that since it’s inception, but from a non-scholar, that seems like the literal reading of it.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 10:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Just playing Devil's Advocate because I don't like guns.

They’re made and meant for one reason: to kill. I’m not much of a proponent of killing.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Jun 26, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's about police forces

As it was put by Aaron Sorkin once: “Can’t we all agree it’s an antiquated amendment, made at a time where there weren’t lampposts, let alone police forces?”* There was a very real threat of anarchy, and an equally legitimate threat of foreign invasion. Of course people needed guns.

“Militia” didn’t have the post-Timothy McVeigh connotation that it does now. It was about a citizen army, ready to defend the nation at a moment’s notice from the British to the north (or across the sea), the French to the west, the Spanish to the south, and the Native Americans everywhere. This is to say nothing of the citizen’s ability to stop a burglar or hostile actor.

I’ve always called for a literal interpretation of the Second Amendment. If the right to bear arms is to not be abridged so that a citizen militia dedicated to the preservation of freedom can be formed, then let’s make sure the people with guns are joining the militia. Buy a semi-automatic assault rifle, join the National Guard! We’ll give you plenty of shit to shoot at in Basic Training!

Needless to say, my interpretation of the Second Amendment hasn’t gotten too far yet…

I’m not a gun nut. I’ve been hunting twice in my life; it always seems to fall during football season, so I don’t go. I have no desire to own a handgun; I’d rather have a dog to protect my stuff. But OPS is right. If the government repealed the Second Amendment (not that they can, of course) and outlawed guns tomorrow, it would just mean that the most pro-gun crackpots would keep theirs while the rest of the rational world turned them in. Seeing as how the Second Amendment is supposed to stop anarchy, that seems strangely unironic.

* — Yes, heaven help me for quoting the guy who wrote The West Wing as a voice of reason on a social issue.

storminspank: "Or we could join you can take our pants off."

by Hawkeye State on Jun 26, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The founding fathers

may not quite have anticipated that the slow manual loading firearms of their day would be replaced with ones that had the ability to mow down a crowd with one trigger pull.
But I think we can all agree that at the time it was vital and absolutely necessary for our fledgling country.

by chitownhawkeye on Jun 26, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The key

to this and any discussion of constitutional rights is line-drawing. With freedom of speech, we can all agree that certain speech can and should be outlawed (ie slander, libel, speech designed to cause physical harm ie yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theater). How far does that go?

Same thing with the right to bear arms. We can all agree that people shouldn’t be able to build nuclear weapons in their basements. Likewise, we can agree that a government who wouldn’t allow us to keep a board with a nail in it to ward off attackers would be absolute tyranny. But where do you draw the line between a board with a nail in it and a nuclear weapon?

by Angle's Dangle on Jun 26, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Somewhere in the middle, I would hope.

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 26, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is the intent

The 2nd amendment exists to provide people a way to defend themselves in a revolution against a tyrannical government. If you read some other stuff written by the founding fathers that was their intent.

by BryceC on Jun 26, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tyranical Government

What makes any one think that this government cannot or will not become tyranical. Part of the checks and balances of this country is that the federal government should respect the right of the individual to stand up to an unjust government. Thomas Jefferson himself made many statements to that effect. The problem is that as time has progressed instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions, americans look for the scape goat. What about the judges who keep letting these nutballs out of jail. What about the prosecutors who continue to wheel and deal with criminals all in the name of getting a cheap conviction. At this point instead of outlawing guns maybe america should wake up, take responsibility for themselves and their families, and outlaw judges and attorneys, for they are just as dangerous as any AK-47. Hell while we are at it cars, knives, baseball bats, the prostate, and even food should be outlawed. Those things contribute to more wreckless deaths a year than firearms. Coach Thomas like many other people was the victim of something much worse than a shooting death. He was the victim of an evil that was set into motion my a man. A firearm holds no evil. It is an inamimate object. A tool used worldwide by people such as myself to protect the lives of millions of people on a daily basis. The evil comes from within the heart of a sinnister man who had murder on his mind and was going to kill at all costs.

I learned a great many things in the Marines that helped me as a football coach. The Marines train men hard and to do things the right way, just as a football team must train. - Hayden Fry

by NileKinnickIronman on Jun 26, 2009 12:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's where the train fell off the track and exploded

At this point instead of outlawing guns maybe america should wake up, take responsibility for themselves and their families, and outlaw judges and attorneys, for they are just as dangerous as any AK-47

It’s a shame, because the rest of the post is mostly meritous. But come on, man.

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 26, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OPS fan

OPS, I love to read your articles and posts. You put a ton of time and effort into what you say and it is always entertaining or insightful. A little background on me. I am a 6 year veteran of the United States Marine Corps from 1994 to 2000. In 2000 I was hired by the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office in Omaha,NE and I have been there since. From 2002 to 2006 I was stationed at the county courthouse in Omaha as a court security deputy. I have seen so many acts of absolute insanity happen in those courtrooms that I hope that I never have to go back. It was 4 years of watching career criminals get off on charges that they deserved to go to prison for multiple years for just becasuse of a Judge’s agenda or an attorney that has enough dirt on someone in the court system to get his client a good deal. County Attorneys that accept plea deals just so they can say they got a conviction. Never mind that a guy who is facing 25 years for his crimes just plead to 2 years in prison, which means he will be walking the streets in less than one year. This A**hole who shot coach Thomas should have still been in jail for his escapades from saturday. The biggest question on everybody’s mind should be why he still wasn’t.

I learned a great many things in the Marines that helped me as a football coach. The Marines train men hard and to do things the right way, just as a football team must train. - Hayden Fry

by NileKinnickIronman on Jun 26, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's well-known why he wasn't, and it had nothing to do with judges or lawyers

It was a serious clerical error on the hospital’s part. He was supposed to be released to the custody of the police, and the hospital let him out instead. He was probably going to face multiple felony charges and have bail of god knows how much. The justice system, executed properly, would not have let this guy out on the streets.

Thanks for both your kind words and more importantly, your service to the country.

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 26, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

First, they came for the gunowners...

and I remained silent. Then, they came for the knife owners, and I remained silent. Then, they came for the car owners, and I was pissed, but remained silent. Then, they wanted my prostate and my pizza. And there was nobody left to defend me.

by WaterlooChazz on Jun 26, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL. It is hard to laugh at these matters, but I appreciate that greatly. While you have two polarizing sides to this issue it really shows that as humans we can sit and discuss this rationally and without resorting to potty mouthed name calling. I respect the opinions of every one who can do this without getting mad at each other and be internet tough guys by taking shots at people out in cyberspace. Hayden fry’s moustache ride and Bluzmn should stow the anger. It has fit both sterotypes of the angry conservative and the name calling liberal. It is kind of like listening to Tom and Jerry go at it.

I learned a great many things in the Marines that helped me as a football coach. The Marines train men hard and to do things the right way, just as a football team must train. - Hayden Fry

by NileKinnickIronman on Jun 26, 2009 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A proud gun owner

I have been a gun owner my entire life and I happen to live in one of the vast majority of states that, unlike Iowa, allows its citizens to not only own, but to carry weapons. I carry a handgun like I carry my wallet – never leave home without it.

It is hard to have a discussion about this subject without sounding like a bumper sticker. I will just say that we live in a society that is increasingly violent and if you think the police will protect you, you are sadly mistaken. I love the job LEO does, but they are going to show up at the scene of a crime, pick up the pieces and try to find out whodunnit. They do not “protect.” Call 911 in the middle of the night in any major city and see how long it takes for the police to arrive. Meanwhile, the invader is in your home.

If someone tries to rob me while I am making my nightly bank deposit, it will be their last act. If someone breaks into my home while I am there, they will be carried out. Here in Augusta, GA last Christmas, on a Saturday afternoon at the mall, three men invaded a restroom stall and beat a man to the verge of death in Sears. Please note that I said they “beat” him. They were not armed, just violent. He was robbed and then taken to intensive care. I can promise you that if I see feet gathered outside my bathroom stall, it is going to get really loud, really fast, if the door bursts open. I know this is not the politically correct viewpoint and probably very unpopular here, but so be it, it is how I live my life.

Would an armed citizen have saved Coach Thomas? Maybe, maybe not. I do not know how the scene unfolded, but if he had been armed? Again, maybe, maybe not. However, in a case like Columbine or one like Virginia Tech, I know in my heart that armed citizenry would have saved lives. Armed teachers at Columbine would surely have saved lives. Sad, but true.

Finally, for those that speak of all the lives that would be saved if there were no guns in America: the most recent report I could find from the CDC was for 2006 and guns accounted for only 68% of homicides in this country and .76% of total deaths that year.

by Bluzmn on Jun 26, 2009 2:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Thank goodness

guns accounted for only 68% of homicides

And here I thought that it would have been a vast majority…..

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 26, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

That is all you took from what I wrote? Okay, I’ll play. Even with “the sky is falling” and guns littering the street here in the good ol’ USA, 1/3 of homicides were still committed with other means. Wouldn’t you think with all the hand-wringing that those numbers would be different? Good heavens, with the way the anti-gun folks carry on, I would expect virtually all homicides and at least half the total deaths in this country to be handgun-related.

You know what? Never mind. People make up their minds that GUNS BAD and there is nothing you can do to make a dent in that illogic.

Peace.

And rest in peace, Coach Thomas.

by Bluzmn on Jun 26, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Goddam it, I didn't want to get involved in this but....

I simply didn’t realize how dangerous my everyday surroundings were:

If someone tries to rob me while I am making my nightly bank deposit

If someone breaks into my home while I am there

if I see feet gathered outside my bathroom stall

if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad walks into my kitchen and starts calling me names

if I see that rabbit that keeps getting into my lettuce patch

Fuck yeah dude, you’ll be ready.

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! YEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAA! BLAM! BLAM!

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 26, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was news to you?

Read a fucking newspaper, asswipe.

by Bluzmn on Jun 26, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No thanks

All those sensationally violent front page stories might scare me into getting a concealed weapon license. Then we’ve got another lunatic on the street with a gun. I can’t see how that would help.

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 26, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's bury it.

This isn’t the right forum for this.

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 26, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

At HFMR...

How nice of you to get in the last word, and then suggest the argument should stop.

LOL

by WaterlooChazz on Jun 26, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I know, the ol' punch and run

I don’t mind continuing, but there’s not a lot of common ground between the two sides of this argument….

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 26, 2009 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cheers Bluzmn

You said what I didn’t have the balls to.

by shada's revenge on Jun 26, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's cut some slack to....

Bluzmn. If I made nightly bank deposits, I would think more about owning and carrying a gun myself.

On the other hand, I think some of us on this thread believe that the dude who killed Coach T was mentally disturbed, and that it was his access to a gun that allowed the murder to occur. I believe that if Brecker went in there to face off with Coach T with nothing to unleash but fists, that Coach T was going to be the victor.

I am afraid that, if everyone had and carried a gun, you would see a ton more stupid accidents and some more innocent people get hurt or killed.

So, Bluzmn, not all of us are roasting you for carrying a gun. What some of us are saying is that guns may allow more problems than they solve.

by WaterlooChazz on Jun 26, 2009 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

I do not believe that owning or carrying a gun is a panacea. I also do not believe that everybody is cut out to carry a weapon. Maybe what I wrote earlier seemed harsh or crazy to those who do not know me. If the decision is made to carry a weapon, there is a tremendous amount of responsibility that goes with that decision. Practice, preparation, technique, mental attitude, etc., etc., etc. I am a 50 year-old former Marine in excellent health and above-average shape (for my age) who takes the carrying of a weapon seriously. I have also had experiences like someone being shot and killed behind my condo in Chicago while I was walking my dog. Another time, a murder victim was dumped on the corner within about 20-30 yards of the entrance to my place so violent crime is real to me, not just a headline. (and that is not a flame, HFMR)

As for the horrific incident with Coach Thomas, I am of the belief that a crazy POS like this Becker would find a way. If he is of the mindset to kill somebody, then he is of the mindset to use a knife or a bat or whatever. I do not believe that taking away the guns means that everybody resorts to Queen’s rules boxing.

I am afraid that it is an intricate subject with no easy answers on any side.

by Bluzmn on Jun 26, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And now......

…with my Glock 27 in an ankle glove, I have to go take about $2,000 and drop it in the night deposit.

Peace, everybody.

by Bluzmn on Jun 26, 2009 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Night deposit" my ass

It’s still going to be light out for like 3 more hours. Pussy.

(I kid, I kid. We need levity.)

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Jun 26, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bluzm, I have no problem with you owning and carrying a gun.

You make a great point that gun ownership is not for everyone. I totally agree. My problem is that any crazy asshole who wants one can have one.

Case in point: I got a 20-gauge shotgun for Christmas when I was 12 years old.

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 26, 2009 6:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I know I said I wouldn't post anymore on this, but whatever...

HFMR, I don’t think any of us support the idea of any random wacko being allowed to own a gun. As it is right now, even with all the background checks and all of the other regulations, nuts like the man who murdered Mr. Thomas are still able to aquire one. I’d wager a guess that many of the unregistered guns used in crimes today are either stolen, or from the black market and other “improper channels”, and I doubt a ban would stop that.

DO YOU HAVE PRIDE, DANNY?

by ReadingRambler on Jun 26, 2009 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe not, I just hate the "fight fire with fire" logic:

There are dangerous people out there who have guns…….therefore I also need a gun in order to protect myself from them.

That’s not fixing the fucking problem.

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 27, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing is fixing the fucking problem

That’s why people choose to protect themselves. Yeah, I probably will never use my handgun except for at the range, and I hope that is the case. However, owning a gun and knowing how to use it is the one step an individual can take to protect themselves. Sorry, HFMR, I am not going to be caught vulnerable if I can help it, and, unfortunately a handgun is a way to ensure that. I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

by shada's revenge on Jun 27, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

20 Gauge?

Your parents must have also though light of your abilities. At 12 you should be issued a 10 guage. Maybe your fragile shoulders just couldn’t handle it. (I hope you see that I am just poking with a stick at the riled up bear with this post)

I learned a great many things in the Marines that helped me as a football coach. The Marines train men hard and to do things the right way, just as a football team must train. - Hayden Fry

by NileKinnickIronman on Jun 26, 2009 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I realized that the first time I went hunting with my friends

They all laughed at my gun and called me a pussy.

No self-respecting man from Iowa goes anywhere without beer

by Hayden Fry's Moustache Ride on Jun 27, 2009 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This isn’t about gun control or the Constitution or any other issue. This is about a mentally ill guy going unchecked. Why wasn’t he locked up? What does it matter now? A good man is gone and we can’t replace him.
Shit.

by jebushchrist on Jun 28, 2009 11:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs