Idle Musing About Big Ten Expansion
by Adam Jacobi on Dec 16, 2009 4:26 PM CST
in Football
58 comments
Okay, so even though expansion is probably a go--probably--none of this talk is going to be relevant for at least a year and probably much longer. Is that going to stop us? Has it ever?
Notre Dame's not going to happen. Why? Because there's likely far too large a disconnect between each side's perception of Notre Dame's value to the conference. Both the school and the conference probably think "they need us more than we need them," and only the conference would be right. Jim Delaney would likely want no part of such a radioactively bitchy athletic department and fanbase.
I get why Pitt's a natural fit for the conference and everything, but doesn't it seem like they're almost too good a fit? By that I mean their inclusion doesn't bring anything to the table except a "12th for the sake of 12." The footprint doesn't grow at all and there aren't any markets that come into play; would that even be a net positive in terms of BTN money per school? And that's not even taking into consideration the looming nightmare of crafting divisions. So yeah, might happen, but we'd prefer something a little more beneficial than the Wannstache and his minions.
Cincinnati is right out.
Missouri still intrigues me, although "Big Ten West" would scarcely be better at football than "Big Twelve North." Not a dig on Missouri, but just saying--all the post-1955 greatness (and about 90% of the pre-) is on the other side of Lake Michigan. It's likely in Missouri's best interests to at least entertain some overtures from the Big Ten, though; Missouri fans have been feeling far more disrespect from the Big 12 than any school should get from its conference (passed up for ISU? Seriously?), and if nothing else they should use the opportunity to strengthen their standing within the Big Roman Numerals. Otherwise, that BTN revenue sharing looks better and better.
Iowa State would immediately diminish the Big Ten's standing in every single aspect. They don't even belong in Division I, much less the Big Ten. No. No no no.
Any other Big 12 North schools would probably not have much reciprocal interest; they're too far away geographically and pretty well entrenched in that old Big 8 family.
As for Texas, yes, they were on the conference's radar, but there's no damn way they'd share their TV money. They're the king of the Big XII, and it'd be moronic for them to pass up any aspect of their relationship with the conference. Delaney would love to have them. And I'd love to be able to dunk on a 12-foot rim.
Syracuse and Rutgers are candidates for roughly the same reason: New York Money. Granted, they're both fine institutions with solid academic reputations, but let's be honest, the Big Ten wants to get on television screens in the Big Apple. It's quite reminiscent of when the NHL took a franchise from Winnipeg to Phoenix, since the Phoenix market is several times larger than Winnipeg. That, I assure you, has not worked out very well. You can't plop something foreign down in a major market and just expect people to pony up money. So if Syracuse or Rutgers joins and Delany tries to pressure cable companies in New York to buy into the BTN, guess what? It's probably not going to happen, and we're going to look remarkably stupid for thinking it would.
Of course, the best option--still and always--is Cornell.
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Iowa State
I still don’t understand why they get brought into this discussion, except to allow Iowa fans a cheap shot at them in the off-season. They would gain nothing by joining the Big 10 in the same way that the Big 10 gains nothing by having them.
"I am so proud to be your coach." -Paul Rhoads
Um.
They would gain nothing by joining the Big 10
What about better bowl tie-ins, better TV deals, and, oh yeah, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Sure, they’d be the new Indiana but it would still pay better for them than being the Indiana of the Big 12.
in the same way that the Big 10 gains nothing by having them.
But this is unquestionably true.
I don’t know the exact numbers, so I can’t argue whether the bowl tie-ins and/or $$ is better. I would be surprised if it’s that much different though. Would be nice to have more than 4 or 5 games a year televised though, even if I did have to get a new channel on the Dish to watch it.
Realistically, the Clones know who they are and what realistic goals should be at this point – trying to get to a bowl, any bowl, in consecutive years. In years like this one, with a nice soft Big XII North schedule and getting Baylor in the southern div. schedule, Even a bad (and that’s saying something by Cyclone standards) team talent-wise can pull out 6 wins. Does it take advantage of the flood of bowl that make up the somewhat-cheapened Div. 1 postseason? Sure. But it’s a realistic, attainable goal most years for ISU.
"I am so proud to be your coach." -Paul Rhoads
Well...
I don’t know the exact numbers, so I can’t argue whether the bowl tie-ins and/or $$ is better. I would be surprised if it’s that much different though.
You would be wrong. Based on those figures, the value of the Big Ten’s deal with ABC/ESPN is 2x the value of the Big 12’s deal with ABC/ESPN. That doesn’t factor in the BTN deal, which is a massive source of revenue. Nor does it consider the fact that all of that BXI money is split equally — which is not the case in the Big 12. The bowl money is closer, but still about a $3M edge for the B10, I believe.
I don't know why people bring up Iowa State either
To me they bring no benefit at all.
by HawkeyeRecon on Dec 16, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
They do bring a little benefit to just Iowa.
We would get to schedule a stronger non-conference opponent rather than having to play the Clones every year. This would be in exchange for playing one team from the eastern division. All in all it would probably strengthen our schedule slightly.
Holy Fuck!
Cornell is perfect. I can’t wait to tell my a capella group ‘The Do-Re-Migos’ about this.
I got into Cornell because I'm smart. I'm smart enough to have a dad who donates buildings to things.
-Andy Bernard
by HawkeyeRecon on Dec 16, 2009 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
They'll perform at your wedding
for a mere $9000.
by salparadise23 on Dec 17, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
Pitt is not a good fit
Pitt auditioned to join the conference whenever University of Chicago left in the 40s; Michigan State was chosen instead. The Big Ten is all about large research, land-grant, flagship programs with strong football traditions and numbers. Preserving that brand of educational and athletic environment and expanding the Big Ten Network are most important to them, both of which Pitt fails to provide.
Pitt has the athletic facilities and academic esteem to stand up among the Big Ten, but that’s never been the way the conference has expanded, ever.
the hilarity in the cornell article
was the date it was written. March of 2009. wow
Gotta get up to get down
Oh lord... they're good in WRESTLING?
What kind of drugs are they sniffing in Ithaca? Bring ’em on.
"Wow. You know you have problems when even the cheerleaders know you suck." ~ Pain in the Sash
by Leftcoast Hawk on Dec 16, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
5th at the NCAA tournament last year
I do what I can.
by Anonymous Hero on Dec 17, 2009 12:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Cornell would bring in Billions and Billions, too.
"Wow. You know you have problems when even the cheerleaders know you suck." ~ Pain in the Sash
UNI?
They have a dome. It’s perfect for play-offs or so I’ve heard.
by Stay thirsty, my friends. on Dec 16, 2009 6:40 PM CST reply actions
What about WVU!
A slice of Appalachia in the Big Ten. I bet they’d eat beat the piss out of the gophers every year.
Absolutely not.
As has been mentioned in literally every other thread here, the academics at West Virginia are, in comparison to the Big Ten, abysmal. Won’t happen. Ever.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
Gopher?
Sandy: I want you to kill every gophers on the golf course!
Carl Spackler: Correct me if I’m wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers, they’re gonna lock me up and throw away the key…
Sandy: Not golfers, you great fool! Gophers! The little brown, furry rodents -!
Carl Spackler: We can do that; we don’t even have to have a reason. All right, let’s do the same thing, but with gophers -!
"Wow. You know you have problems when even the cheerleaders know you suck." ~ Pain in the Sash
by Leftcoast Hawk on Dec 16, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
It's not just about football
They’ll also look at basketball. If they want eyes on BTN, a strong b-ball draw is probably just as attractive as football.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
I'm starting to come around on this argument
I’ve long been of the conventional wisdom that expansion would be 100% strictly for football purposes because of how much more the sport contributes financially. However, that logic is based on a traditional straight TV rights deal with an outside network (i.e. ESPN/ABC). On the other hand, for Big Ten Network distribution, basketball is definitely a factor (if not a major one) because that sport gives the network a critical mass of programming. Football provides high value programming for 3 months of Saturdays, but basketball is the bread-and-butter that provides day-to-day value for the network.
So, understanding how basketball relates to BTN revenue changes the analysis quite a bit. The football programs at Rutgers and Syracuse aren’t really strong deliverers of the dream of the NYC market for the BTN – neither of those football teams may really have that much leverage with cable operators. The same can certainly be said for Rutgers basketball. However, can NYC cable operators deny basic coverage for 10-15 Syracuse basketball games per year in that market? I don’t think they can. As bad of a college football market that NYC is in general, it’s a pretty good place for college hoops. The addition of a marquee Syracuse basketball program may very well be the key factor if the Big Ten decides that it doesn’t want to wait for ND anymore.
by Frank the Tank on Dec 16, 2009 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
May I be the first to suggest no other than...
THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO!
Esteemed academics: check
Member of Association of American Universities: umm, check?
Football program: check (+10 additional yards)
Kick-ass nickname from classic teen angst movie: check
New market without exceeding mileage reimbursement quota: check
Why stop at a mere city (Pittsburgh, Syracuse), or state (Missouri, Rutgers), when you can have an entire fucking country to yourself, eh? I say let’s invade the north and bring on the most American of Canadian schools. Besides, the SkyDome is just asking to have it’s goalposts tossed into Lake Ontario.
by Pubes in Pink Urinals on Dec 16, 2009 8:54 PM CST reply actions
The BCS Mythical International Chamionship Game
Doesn’t have quite that same ring to it.
"I am so proud to be your coach." -Paul Rhoads
I'll assume your not mentioning Nebraska was intentional
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
I think Nebraska is a great fit
Granted they win the big XII north only to lose the big XII championship every year. Heading west in conferance makes since to me. Overkill in one market does not make sense nor does extreme east, south, or west. Come to think of it, what is the negative of having Nebraska in the conference?
by ChryslerKinnick on Dec 16, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
Extra travel and a basketball team with absolutely no history but bad history
I’d be shocked if it happened, but those are the only negatives I know of.
I’m ignorant of Nebraska’s academics.
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 16, 2009 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, and their women's volleyball team is good
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 16, 2009 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
They wouldn't jump.
No way in hell.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
by Adam Jacobi on Dec 17, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
Do want.
If the Big 10 truly wants 12 just so they can have divisions and a championship game, I love the idea of Navy joining up. There was a great bit about why Navy fits on The Sporting News yesterday.
• Academic credentials are impeccable.
• Football program is solid.
• Triple-option is “3 Yards/Cloud” 2.0
• Can keep trad’l games w/ Army, AFA, ND.
• Better than Notre Dame.
• Nearly beat Ohio State this season.
• Non-competitive recruiting strategy.
• But expands B10 footprint in the East.
Managing Editor/Chief Lackey-And The Valley Shook
Army/Navy Game
when is the tv contract up for this game? I bet Delaney would love having it on the BTN every other year when he goes and sells the BTN to other cable providers
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
I know it makes for good discussion and all, but...
if Notre Dame doesn’t want in, they are going to stay at 11. None of these other teams add anything.
I do what I can.
by Anonymous Hero on Dec 17, 2009 12:49 AM CST reply actions
The correct answer is Notre Dame
Everyone else would be slumming, 2 a.m. desperation.
"I always like it better when the clowns seem to try to be happy."
Although, I don't think anyone expected that Boise would become a near perennial BCS team
or that UConn would ever amount to anything in football. I think—to beat a dead horse—that Syracuse is the one program that has history capable of repeating itself in football and we already know the cache they bring in basketball (eyebalss in NYC that lead eventually to eyeballs for football) and they could ressurect their wrestling program! They have a good location to recruit from, and with all the added revenue of joining the BIg Ten, they would vastly update and improve their facilities and if need be get better coaching.
Having said all that, after reading the Big Ten statements, it is clear they are doing a dance with Notre Dame. They need to make overtures and save face (thus the timeline) and ND needs to feel like they are in control. ND will need a conference the second football goes to a playoff and clearly they don’t want to just include football into the Big East.
A playoff is coming, it is just a matter of when. All the new media and bowl contracts will include playoff provisions.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
If you read the comments on NunesMagician
Their fans like the idea of Big Ten football (although they think they would get killed), but they hate Big Ten basketball for it’s awful slowness, and they think playing in the Big Ten would hurt their recruiting. Also, they don’t want to lose their series with Georgetown.
I think there’s too much entrenched opposition on the basketball (including Boeheim, who mocked us when we joined the Big Ten) side for Cuse to work.
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 17, 2009 8:15 AM CST up reply actions
As I recall
Boeheim’s statement (over 19 years ago now) about Penn State joining the Big Ten was more about winning. He felt that he and Penn State would not win in the Big Ten. Now he was coming off a stinging defeat to Indiana in the NC game. I think the money was different then and Syracuse was under consideration for the Big Ten back then and there might have been some jealousy.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
I looked this up to see what he said
and you might be right…Boeheim will not want to come to the Big Ten. But, he’s 65 years old and may have no more than 5 years left in him. We’ll see what the AD will say if an overture is made. Again, assuming ND were to say “forget it.”
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
I wish I could dunk on a 9 foot rim
I think Syracuse is the top choice followed by Missouri. None of the other schools (besides ND or Texas) really brings a whole lot besides the 12th team.
Anyone but Pitt
I live in Pittsburgh now and I have to say they would be a horrible addition to the Big 10. They have great academics and a lot of research, but they just wouldn’t fit. This is a pro football city – Pitt games never come close to selling out with the possible exception of ND and Cinncy. The fans have to be the worst I’ve ever seen. Pitt fans often walk around with a sense of entitlement/cockiness that only compares to Nebraska fans when NU was good.
Pitt doesn’t improve the big 10 it hurts it.
I agree
one of my best friends is a prof there and even the academics are not as well rounded as they could or should be. It is just not up to snuff in so many ways.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
I dunno -- sounds like someone we know...
Change a few things here and there…
This is a pro football city –PittMinnesota games never come close to selling out with the possible exception ofNDIowa andCinncyWisco.
Voila!
Oh, man
That is classic.
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 17, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
BTN is already in NYC
Time Warner Cable added it this past year. Albeit it’s not on a basic tier, so you have to pay extra for it. But, yeah, an East Coast team would be nice since it seems all we get here is negative press.
by Big Apple Hawk on Dec 17, 2009 10:10 AM CST reply actions
NYC is the goal here
Yes, NYC is a pro sports town and owns the biggest piece of the pie, but this is a huge pie. 19 million folks. Rutgers could also pull in another batch of the 5 million plus in Philly.
Also, college basketball is big in both NYC and Philly. And Yankee stadium is set to host college football games after baseball seasons are over for the foreseeable future. If Rutgers or Syracuse, expect to see at least one or two big ten games at Yankee/New Meadowlands Stadiums each year. This isn’t about how good Rutgers or Syracuse is in either football or basketball right now, its about expanding the tv/exposure base to a bigger market that already has thousands of big ten fans in it.
by RodgersHasAHose on Dec 17, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
I'm done after this, I swear...
NYC is the media capital of the US. If the goal is to get the Big Ten bumped up on the national media radar (to push Heisman candidates, bubble teams for March Madness, BCS bowl positioning, etc.) then having NY Times, Post & Daily News cover a local big ten team is a big plus.
by RodgersHasAHose on Dec 17, 2009 12:11 PM CST reply actions
Right on!
Couldn’t agree with you more. The B10 alumni clubs out here have huge followings not to mention huge turnouts for gamewatches… and those are only the fans we know of. Your 2nd post hit the nail on the head though. That East Coast media support would be huge for BCS & Tourney positions and national awards, especially for any teams that are not OSU, PSU & Michigan.
by Big Apple Hawk on Dec 17, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
But just adding Syracuse or Rutgers doesn't automatically accomplish that.
The Times has one Rutgers story on its college football page and zero about Syracuse. The Post has team coverage on even the Liberty (WNBA team), but no college football. Their college sports section, which is utterly buried, is dedicated mainly to St. John’s and mentions neither team at all. The NYDN basically relies on AP reports for its college coverage.
The point is that New York is not a college sports town, just like Phoenix is not a hockey town. You can’t force your way into that market and expect things to automatically work out. It doesn’t work that way.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
Good Idea Oops
St. John’s it is.
It's not that I'm lazy, Bob, it's that I just don't care
No, wait, I didn't...
…shit. Now we’re stuck with St. John’s. Awesome.
I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks
Worst part is
that’s still 2 losses for the basketball team.
It never gets to be easy
by chitownhawkeye on Dec 17, 2009 9:41 PM CST up reply actions
Chicago:Northwestern = New York:Rutgers
jNW averaged 14K less fans than Rutgers did last year. Is Chicago a big college sports town? College sports comes way after Cubs, Bears, Sox, Blackhawks, etc. in Chicago. You don’t have to be the biggest presence in big cities, but you do need to be a presence.
There are regular college football columnists in all three NYC papers. The Post has Lenn Robbins, who has a weekly column in season, with picks. The Daily News has the same type of column with Dick Weiss. And the Times has a whole group of excellent college sports reports and a great blog, the Quad. Finally, Newark’s Star Ledger, big paper in the NJ ’burbs, has a regular Rutgers column.
by RodgersHasAHose on Dec 18, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
Does Hayden Fox still coach at Minnesota State?
Adding them could bring some big syndication dollars to the conference . . .
by The Naked Bootleg on Dec 17, 2009 12:11 PM CST reply actions
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