Rock M Nation Weighs in on Big Ten Expansion Talk
Very interesting discussion from their point of view. As their moderator puts it near the beginning of the thread:
And really, while I’m really fed up with the Big 12 in some ways, I’m not fooling myself into thinking the Big Ten would be some utopia where all of our problems would be solved and everything would be perfect. There are plenty of issues with heading to the Big Ten — two-thirds of our games would be at 11am (blech), and we’d be heading into a worse conference in terms of football and (sometimes) basketball, not to mention the fact that the Big Ten Network isn’t exactly found nationwide. And it’s unknown how much this would or would not affect our ability to recruit the state of Texas, which has obviously been a humongous part of our football recruiting strategy. Plus, as I think ZD said a while back, we’d be escaping the grips of UT, etc., … and ending up right in the grips of Michigan and tOSU. We’d get rid of some our problems and add a few more.
But I’m trying to leave my own opinions/biases out of this. Between the equal revenue sharing, the fact that UM/tOSU’s grip isn’t as strong as UT’s, and perhaps most importantly, the academic boost we would see, I absolutely think Mizzou would accept the opportunity to jump, whether I think it’s a good idea or not (and I go back and forth on the idea daily).
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Adam Jacobi
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"...and we’d be heading into a worse conference in terms of football and (sometimes) basketball..."
Right, because it’s always been that way, and will always be that way. Because as we all know, the Big Ten has always been a god-awful, joke of a conference, and the Big 8/12 has always been the pinnicle of awesome.
Ugh.
I mean, I understand his line of thinking here, but it’s a very, very narrow perspective for anyone older than about a seven-year-old (or who has only been watching CFB for that long, anyway).
Can’t really argue w/the rest.
It's not that way this year
I don’t care what Sagarin says.
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 12, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
Other candidates for expansion?
Just a few to consider and debate (geographically, from West to East):
• Iowa State
• Notre Dame
• Kentucky
• Pittsburgh
• Syracuse
• Rutgers
• Virginia Tech
Those are just off the top of my head, no basis on whether any of them would actually consider the move.
"Oh no, don't do that, don't do that. If you shoot him, you'll just make him mad." - The Waco Kid
Geography Fail
But still, “in no particular order”.
"Oh no, don't do that, don't do that. If you shoot him, you'll just make him mad." - The Waco Kid
What's missing
First and foremost, the school has to meet the criteria academically – sports is a secondary question in that sort of alignment (note that the U of Chicago is part of our “conference” academically – just not in sports)
That effectively eliminates Iowa State, Kentucky, and Va Tech from your candidates.
Notre Dame won’t join – they’re independent and they like it that way.
I will bet you 50 fake dollars Notre Dame joins
They can’t stay independent forever. If I’m Jim Delany, I am certainly rooting for Brian Kelly to be Gerry Faust-esque.
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 12, 2009 10:46 PM CST up reply actions
Bet accepted
Notre Dame will eventually join a conference. Just not the Big Televen. They’ll go Big East, as they already have for basketball. They arent the same type of ‘research based’ institution that the others are.
by benvious on Dec 13, 2009 12:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Since it's all about money
I would doubt they’d join the BE. It’s BT or bust IMO.
"I'm colonel cool! And I'm the captain on this rocket to the stars!"
Once Big 10 Gets A 12th Team
The door will be closed to Notre Dame. If there really is a push to get a 12th team, I see that process being completed before ND decides to join a conference.
F’ em anyway. They had their chance.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
Expansion?
I just want to know what the Big Ten gains from expansion. Will someone please find me an example of when a championship game actually benefited someone? I mean seriously.
The problem is that stop playing two weeks before the season ends. So why not just play a full round robin (meaning a 13 game season) and have a bye week? There would be three non conference games (same as Pac 10) and we certainly be the only teams playing 13 games.
Best part of this? We avoid embarssments like the Big XII South debacle last year (or at least hand that problem off to the BCS to sort out and not make the conference look bad) or the numerous losses that cost the Big XII the chance to compete in the National Title game.
The bye week goes into effect next season,
which will have the effect of extending the season into Thanksgiving week. Other than that, you and I hold pretty much the same opinions on it. Expanding solves nothing, and any gain would be minimal at best.
The only problem that the Big 10 has now is ties for conference championships, and even then most of those have been decided by tie-breakers.
I have not heard of a rule change to allow teams to play 13 season games
but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Only way you can play 13 outside of a conference championship is to play at Hawai’i.
…give me the courage and the ability to so conduct myself in every situation that my country, my family, and my friends will be proud of me.
-Nile Kinnick
by Hawkeyewith49Jackrabbits on Dec 14, 2009 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting
Granted, this is a small cross-section of fans that I am talking about, but my roommates here in Chicago, as well as most in my circle of friends, are diehard Mizzou fans. I’ve brought this scenario up as a hypothetical for them a couple of times and their disdain for the thought of being in the Big Ten is almost vitriolic.
Part of me wonders if that is because they’d no longer be a part of the pillow-fight that is the Big XII North…
A Big Ten West division of: Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Northwestern and Illinois....
…isn’t all that hot.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
That's Why
you need to toss out the idea of dividing a 12 team Big 10 based on geography. It would need to be split based on some sort of historical football strength formula. The other sports all play enough games that they can do a true round robin, so they can be ignored for purposes of that discussion.
That’s my biggest fear of 12 teams, that there will be a weak sister division and Iowa will be in it.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
North/South division works out reasonably well
You’d have to keep one protected rivalry, SEC-style, in order to appease Michigan and OSU fans and make sure that game happens every year, but it could be done.
or just swapping Wisconsin and Penn St.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
It's not like Mizzou would be any better
or worse off in the Big 10 as they are now. They’d be a mid-level team, just like they are now.
In any scenario, I can’t see the Big 10 expanding South – even if just slightly. The more logical direction is East into PA or New Jersey. Adding a school in that area would make more sense geographically, and add just as many TV sets as expanding into Missouri would.
Lets just
Add Syracuse and be done with it. Syracuse opens the east coast market and has the academics.
And you can take that to the bank.
by Hawkeye X on Dec 13, 2009 9:57 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Eck...
The ‘Cuse has some of the worst fans, ever. I went to the game up there in ’06 (JC’s debut as starter) and their fans were awful to those of us seated with the DC/NY-NJ I-club. I’d say about 80% of the student body are NYC/Patterson, NJ area snobs. We all had a great time at the game (and the beer flowed like wine) despite the rather disappointing performance. Oh well.
I wonder, would any Big East school give up their booze to join the BXI? I mean, beer says at those games gotta bring in a lot of revenue.
KOK, you might be a genius...
by hawkeye_heartattack on Dec 13, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
Jason Manson started that game
Jake’s first start came against N. Illinois later that season.
Mizzou Won't Be Asked To Join
Apparently, Alvarez said that the teams to be courted are “eastern”. So they’ll most likely look to steal one from the Big East.
Speculation on other sites is all about Rutgers, Pitt, Syracuse and Notre Dame.
ND ain’t gonna happen.
Syracuse can be dismissed because of the strong historical ties to the Big East.
Rutgers and Pitt are both good fits. I didn’t realize it but Rugers is the state college of NJ and has 52k students (39k undergrad).
Part of the motivation here is to get more viewers for the Big 10 Network. That network is the best idea Jim Delaney ever had. If they could snag Rutgers and draw all those NJ/NYC viewers for football, and especially basketball games, revenues would go up significantly. That all gets shared out to the conference… it won’t change much with regards to the conference balance of power but it would be a powerful weapon against all the other conferences.
Rumor is SEC and Big 12 have been looking at forming their own networks for the same reason.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
Why does the SEC need a network?
They already have CBS. And ESPN.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
Rutgers has the students, but those football fans seem real a tad fair weather. Stadium capacity is 52,000. You gain more NY eyeballs and a closer rival for PSU but a football program with a shitty history. I really think the east (PSU proximity) is important if the conference is going to consider this. Is this just a coin flip between Rutgers and Pitt? Please, not Cincinnati. Yuck.
Agreed.
I think my top two picks would be Pittsburgh and Mizzou. Both come with a built-in large market presence (Pittsburgh, obvs, and St. Louis…KC to a smaller extent). Both are competitive in both major sports (though Mizzou is competitive in every sport from soccer to baseball to softball to gymnastics to wrestling). And both are very solid academically.
Selfishly, I hope it’s Mizzou so I’d have the chance to see more Iowa games in person. A trip to Columbia is just easier for me than a trip to Iowa City…and I love being the lone opposing fan in an opponents stadium.
Black and Gold Blood: Cubbie Blue Heart
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by MissouriHawk on Dec 14, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
"Rutgers has the students, but those football fans seem real a tad fair weather."
So they’d be a bigger version of jNW, only with heavy East Coast accents, faster Chevy Camero IROC’s and flashier gold wrist and neck chains. Yes, please.
by Twin Cities Hawk on Dec 14, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
I Run Over Children
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 14, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Wouldn't that be a Ferrari?
I actually think it’s “Idiot’s Racecar of Choice”
"You don't become a Hawkeye fan, You're born with Black and Gold in your veins." - Me
by BStylin Hawkye on Dec 14, 2009 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
You'r both wrong
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 14, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
you're
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 14, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
It's Really Only a Camaro
"Andrew Jones....SEND IT IN, BIG FELLA!" - Bill Raftery, 4/2/09
by ReadingRambler on Dec 14, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
Italian R*tard Out Cruising
"Sweet lady fate, why dost thou piss on me so?"
by bluearmadillo on Dec 14, 2009 6:29 PM CST up reply actions
They reek of new money
90% of them don’t know jack about anything. The 10% were fans through all the horribleness and hate those 90%.
"I'm colonel cool! And I'm the captain on this rocket to the stars!"
Rutgers has almost no presence
in the NY market. It is one of the most poorly run athletic departments in the country. But most importantly, the faculty have for years questioned that it is even involved in big time sports. The faculty have always wanted an Ivy type involvment in sports. They have a stadium that was just increased in size to…hold on now…52K. I live in NY and they are not covered by any of the NYC publications at all. They are extremely regional. Syracuse is who they have to make a run at—or Pitt. And now is the time. Basketball is down nationally in terms of revenue and viewership and Syracuse football is down, so I believe they would look at something that they could use to reuild its sports brand with…but ND might be more open that people think. If football goes to a playoff and I believe a sort of playoff is coming, then ND will need a conference.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Dec 14, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
ND would go Big East
Especially if Big 10 steals a team.
They already have the ties with the other sports.
It’s a smaller conference so they would gain an extra home game every year
They would be able to throw their weight around from day one in terms of “how things work”. In the Big 10 they couldn’t do that. We already have 3 large, wealthy nationally prominent programs in PSU, UM & OSU. Plus Iowa, Wisco, MSU bring in significant revenue and won’t tolerate any ND crap.
The NBC contract I don’t see as an issue for Big East, they will either not share or grudgingly give up say 25%. Big 10 would demand a lot more, probably full sharing.
Now for the funny part.
I don’t know that ND realizes that that contract is not a birthright. If Kelly can’t revive the program, I think the contract either goes away or changes signifcantly after it expires in 2015. By then, the Big 10 either has the 12th team or is darn close to it and ND can’t get in no matter what. They stay indie for a few years but eventually join the Big East. They still get a few nationwide TV games a year, but privately they know they’d get a lot more if they were Big 10 and playing UM, OSU & PSU and whatever other team is hot that year. They see all those games on the Big 10 network and all that revenue…. and they cry. They are doomed to the Big East, and nobody really cares about Big East football. Eventually Lou Holtz and all the other codgers that keep talking about them nationally die or retire and ND’s transformation from National Powerhouse to Regional Pretty Good is complete.
In 100 years, we'll all be dead.
Was it just me or did anyone else watch Kelly’s news conferences and see the ghost of a thinner Charlie Weis? Yikes. Smug, overinflated ego? check and check. Too much to hope for, but please let the fun continue.
He kinda is
a Weis type. Smart Football called the notion of him being an offensive genius overblown and basically described him as a good teacher / leader type but running a vanilla version of the spread. That would, of course, make him very different from CW. But his brashness does channel Weis a bit. I think he will be more successfull than Weis and be a much better ambassador for the program, but not a consistent 10 (or even 9) win guy. He beat his first ever Top 20 team in Pittsburgh in his last game—otherwise he’s lost all of those matchups. So…he needs to show that he can win a game against a highly rated team still. He might surprise and be a real star…I am not sold yet.
But, I thought hiring Ferentz was questionable.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
Pittsburgh?
Sure, their ranking says top 20. But that loss was pure Wannstach.
It never gets to be easy
by chitownhawkeye on Dec 15, 2009 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
Big 14 ?
The Big 10/11 should add 3 and have 14.
Add Nebraska and Missouri and ???.
You would have rabid, devoted, traveliing NU fans [remember the Sea of Red at Notre Dame a few years back] and it would add Kansas City and cement rest/most of Mo as a market. Put them in a west division with Iowa, Minn. Wisc., Illinois and NW. There is already a bit of rivalry/hatred between Iowa and both NU and Missouri. Iowa could still play Minn and Wisc. Enhance/keep the growing the rivalry between NU and Missouri. Reignite NU rivalry with Minn. Keep the growing rivalry between Illinois and Missouri. Really wouldn’t add that much more in travel costs/geographic footprint, but gain a lot. Obviously market wise, Nebraska would be by far the smallest, but you cannot take simply state population numbers at face value with their program. NU also competes at a high level in most sports, as does MU. NU has also begin to build a good sized research park on campus (not sure about MU – Husker fan myself) .
In the East, you would allow the 2 Michigan and Indiana schools to remain instate rivals, keep Mich-OSU, etc..
To add one school to the east division, you would have many options. Pitt, Lousiville, Syracuse, ND (probably most logical – imagine the money rolling in w/ Nebraska, ND, Mich, OSU, et al ), Cincinnati, Marshall, etc.
On one level, adding Notre Dame makes sense. They obviously has prestige, history (though not so good recently), name recognition, etc. They also already typically play 3-4 Big 10 teams as it is. Travel costs for them might be lower as they are in the BIg East for other sports. And it would also add a huge nationwide fan base.
Schedule wise, it would allow for 6 in division games, 3 home, 3 away. I would say play 4 from the other divison. It would allow for an even 2 home, 2 away. Obviously with only 2 extra games (in a 12 game schedule), there may be one less home game, as many times bigger schools have 3 home games out of the 4 non conference games. But it would also help eliminate some of the FCS and other canon fodder opponents, making each conference game a bigger deal, more hype, tv revenue, etc.
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