The Great Debate, Part 2: Iowa vs. Penn State
[Part One is over at Black Shoe Diaries]
KevinHD@BSD: Northwestern actually had a better record than Iowa at selection time, although not after Iowa put the "1" in the Big Ten's 1-6.
And I can't argue with your Arizona real estate knowledge, I think I've been west of the Mississippi like once in the last 15 years. I assumed in the last exchange that Penn State wins the battle de coin, but in reality I have no data whatsoever to back that up.
As for "Rose Bowl or Bust," that's most certainly not the spirit in Pennsylvania. I happen to be born and raised in Big Ten country, but even I can't claim to have an eye-twinkling for The Granddaddy. It just seems kinda....past its prime?
I mean they spent all that time telling us the BCS won't ruin tradition by keeping the Rose Bowl in tact, except Ohio State hasn't even been there since 1997 despite winning the league several times, Penn State wins the conference for the first time in a while in 2005 and is delegated to the Orange Bowl, USC players were openly saying they didn't even want to play in the game last year, and now the BCS will force the Rose Bowl to take a mid-major at some point in the next cycle.
Long rant short: what is the Rose Bowl now, anyway? This compromised version is the one most Penn State fans identify with, and unlike every other school in the league, we don't have any program defining moments there. Roses are just more fun to hold in your teeth than oranges.
But you have a better point: Is a BCS game even worth it if it means playing Boise State? What about Cincinnati and Georgia Tech? Am I hating too much on mid-majors and recent risers? Do either of us even want this BCS bid or just the matchups that come with it? What if the matchup is less fun than the Citrus Bowl and on week night? How are you possible going to answer all of these questions?
HS@BHGP: In my office, I have a picture from the 1981 Rose Bowl, Iowa's first in 22 years. I got it as a graduation present, and it's a limited-run proof. I later priced it, and it's not cheap. What I'm saying is, there's a market for expensive photos from a football game that happened 28 years ago, mostly because it's the Rose Bowl. I was at an Iowa basketball game when they announced we were going to the Orange Bowl in 2002, and there were more boos than cheers in the crowd because it wasn't Pasadena. So, yeah, while it might not seem like a big deal to some, it's a big deal to Iowa fans. It's old, it's stodgy, it's lost some of its luster in the BCS era (just as they all have; the Orange Bowl might as well change its name to that of a local tire superstore), but it's still The Grandaddy of 'em All, and it's the only game that can possibly pique my interest in bowl selection.
I'm completely with you on the rest of your 47 questions. My preferences are as follows (bowl names removed, as they truly don't matter): A January 1 game against Ole Miss in Orlando, a January 5 game against Cincinnati in Miami, then a January 4 game against Boise State in Glendale. Iowa-Georgia Tech is a death scenario for us (you can run the ball on this defense; just ask Ohio State), but would at least be fun to watch. The other two potential newcomers (Boise and Cinci) are no-win scenarios. Remember, despite numerous previous debacles, "Big Game" wasn't officially dropped from Bob Stoops' moniker until he lost to Boise. Ohio State (and a beaten-up Pac-10) gives the conference a legitimate chance at winning the Rose Bowl, but beating one of the others in a bowl game gets us nowhere, and a loss to Boise/Cinci/TCU (especially combined with an OSU loss) would be death once again. In other words, I want Ole Miss (which, in the interest of full disclosure, is my favorite team in the SEC, Klan rallies notwithstanding).
I guess we've probably said enough. Where does Penn State end up playing, and against which team?
KevinHD@BSD: A game against Georgia Tech in the Orange is probably my #1 seed --I think that offense and our linebackers would be tremendous football -- and after that I'll take your list with the understanding that I don't actually care about any of those teams.
As for my faithless prediction: Penn State and this guy:

January 1st, Orlando, in the Bowl Formally Known As The Citrus. There is a logic that goes something like this: if Oklahoma State stays eligible, the Fiesta will pick them instead of a Big Ten team, and the Orange Bowl will pick up Penn State.
I don't buy it. Already saddled with a mid-major, it seems way to risky to pick an at-large that doesn't even sell out their home games. A Big Ten team will make more money, and both teams probably have a better football case for it, anyway.
I'll blindly believe your story about the elderly of Arizona, call the finances a wash, and give the pick to Iowa on account of the head-to-head.
You're up.
HS@BHGP: You're not supposed to take my position, Hi-Def. I've been telling everyone we're destined for Orlando (and getting threatened with knuckle sandwiches whenever I do) (and, yes, I'm a fourth grader in 1989). Despite the fact that they're 7-point underdogs this weekend, Oklahoma State is going to beat OU and look good to the Fiesta Bowl. Penn State's national prestige and pull with the TV audience is too much. Boise State is undefeated and a great TV story. We're fourth in the pecking order, and that's not nearly enough to garner a spot in this year's BCS. Citrus Bowl (I spent a few minutes Saturday talking to a Cap One bowl rep, and they hate it when you call it by its proper name) is the final destination for the Hawkeyes. Good luck with those Broncos.
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31 comments
Comments
I'll take my SEC teams with a live animal, thank you very much.
Live Tiger? Kick ass.
Live Eagle? Majestic.
Live Bulldog? Both ugly and cute despite PETA’s objections.
Live Rebel? I’m thinking he’s a bit smelly, and would say something a tinsy bit racist in front of good company.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 12:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
as for UGA VII
he just died this weekend, right?
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
Sad Dawg faces all around.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
Ole Miss doesn’t have a mascot, hasn’t since 03.
Will sadly agree with you on the commentary thing. It’s been a rough year for us Rebs.
by UMBAI on Nov 27, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What you talking 'bout tough year
Just cause the Klan shows up to rally in support of singing an archaic hope for a second coming of the Confederacy at your games.
Though, to be fair, Ole Miss has the hottest coeds in the country, hands down.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
by HoyaGoon on Nov 28, 2009 1:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wny Fiesta will NOT choose Oklahoma State (even if they win at OU)
(this is a repost and inspired by another post at another site, but I thought it useful here)
The Fiesta Bowl might be focused on TCU as the concerning “other” team. The argument goes like this- below is how the “Draft” will go:
Fiesta #1 – Big Ten team
Logic – if they take Ok. St. then they are likely left with choice btwn Cinncy or TCU and they don’t want Cinncy due to lack of fan support and if they are left with TCU they end up with a very "regional" game with Ok. St. and they don’t want that either.
Orange Bowl #2 – Ok. St. or Boise St.
Logic – don’t want another bowl with Cinncy as it was bust last year in every way.
Fiesta #2 – TCU (req. team)
Logic – given choice between TCU and Cinncy they want more regional TCU to ensure fan travel. They MUST select one of these teams if they are not selected already (which they won’t be).
Sugar Bowl – Cinncy (req. team)
So, the question is will it be TCU and Penn State or TCU and Iowa. You know the arguments on that one.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 25, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm totally torn on this issue
If you asked me before the MN game, the feeling around AZ made it seem like a lock for Iowa to end up in the Fiesta if they won that game. The longer this drags out though, the more things change and I get a worse and worse feeling about Iowa coming down here to AZ. The Fiesta Bowl is getting some pressure from the Big 12 to take OK St. if they beat OU.
I think it comes down to Iowa or OK St. here. If the Fiesta takes OK St., i think PSU goes to Orange and Iowa ends up in Cap One.
The one thing that helps Iowa, as mentioned above, is that there are indeed a HUGE number of Iowa people down here in the desert. Plus, this year more than ever, bowls will be looking at who puts butts in seats, not just TV ratings.
Should be an interesting couple of weeks of waiting. If Iowa does end up in the Fiesta, look me up for a drink if anyone comes down!
'They are who we thought they were!'
by twsmith23 on Nov 25, 2009 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here's why a lot of the BCS matchups suck
conference tie-ins.
Everyone is talking about how the Orange Bowl needs a big draw, because they are saddled with the winner of the ACC, who likely won’t bring in a huge fanbase. I know they want to keep the tradition of the bowls in tact, but at this point the tradition is kinda boring (especially for the Big 10 where your opponent is USC 9 times out of 10).
Perhaps because Penn State is a newcomer to this “automatic bid” thing, but I like a little variety in my bowl opponents.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 12:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Remeber when the ACC winner
was supposed to be FSU and Miami each year?
Golly, that was fun.
Of course I'm home. I'm always home. I'm uncool.
by WestPointLion on Nov 25, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
except when it was supposed to be VT
and instead actually was FSU…and Penn State had that grand opportunity of playing a 22nd ranked team in the Orange Bowl…
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't blame VT for that
FSU was talented, but coached by Jeff Bowden. That should have been a bigger game.
"I don't know. I don't know. [waves hand dismissively] First, you'd have to tell me what a 'BCS' is. I don't know."
by ReadingRambler on Nov 25, 2009 7:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A quick edit for you HS;
As someone above mentioned, the ACC has a tie in with the Orange Bowl so we couldn’t play Cincinnati there. If it’s the Orange, it’s Clemson or Georgia Tech.
As for me, I’d like the Fiesta because I like the Monday night prime time game and I have yet to be in Arizona. That said, any of the three will be mighty fine by me!
by Wegher Please! on Nov 25, 2009 1:46 PM CST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Argument for Fiesta Bowl taking Okie State = Big 12 tie.
Argument against = Okie State barely gets 50,000 in a 60,000+ stadium. I don’t know why, but that school is much more Kansas/KSU-like in fan support than OU-like.
An Okie State-TCU game would be a disaster of epic proportions for that bowl from a ticket sales standpoint. I think it’ll be either Iowa or PSU. From an actual football standpoint I’d rather play an SEC team overlooking the big boyness of one of the BCS bowls. As this drags on another couple weeks, I think I’ll care more about the opponent and less about the venue. Maybe. We’ll see.
by txhawkeye on Nov 25, 2009 2:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree
although I’m also curious to know whether or not the novelty factor of making it to a big-time bowl game would boost their attendance. I tend to think it probably wouldn’t have a huge impact — Cincy was crazy successful last year, but their fans still didn’t turn up to the Orange Bowl in droves. I don’t think there are a lot of “hidden” Okie State or TCU fans just waiting for a Fiesta Bowl appearance to emerge from the darkness.
by RossWB on Nov 25, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kansas State always sells out
Kansas is the better comparison. My cousin went to State and they are voracious fans since the first Bill Snyder era. They would bring Iowa numbers to a bowl. Kansas…aka Snob Hill, not so much. They do basketball and everything else is annoying.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 25, 2009 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even as I wrote that, I was thinking ancient history KSU. Still, I don’t know what their stadium holds. I guess I’m saying toOSU is no Nebraska, OU, or A&M among this year’s also-ran Big 12 teams (pending the championship game).
by txhawkeye on Nov 25, 2009 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Iowa is going to the Fiesta Bowl...
…unless somehow Turner Gill and Mike Rozier get an extra year of eligibility and Nebraska suddenly becomes a good opponent for Texas in the Big12 title game, thus sending the Huskers to Glendale. The Fiesta committee will not pass on a seat filler team to conform to some soft alliance with the Big 12. They are vindicated because of Texas playing their way into MNC.
And as for Iowa or PSU.
Generally I consider PSU fans to be like the United Kingdom. They are good allies most of the time in fighting evil like Nazis, Al Qaeda or tOSU. But occasionally some of Nittny Lion Nation has stupid ideas like releasing the Lockerbee bomber or thinking their status as a supposed elite team will carry the day in a leapfrog of Iowa into the BCS Bowl. Attributing this to some sort of "buzz" regarding the PSU program? Alas folks, there is not a buzz about PSU.
I cried 12 tears when I watched the John Capiletti movie. I cheered wildly when Vinny T threw away the Canes Second National Title, but since joing the Big11Ten, PSU has been a pretty good also ran. One really good year with that braniac Kerry Collins and Kijana Carter and several other okay years. The resume is not that much different than Wisconsin or Iowa.
The Fiesta Bowl is taking Iowa.
As for the debate between PSU & Iowa, there are three factors, the third of which, ironically is the least important: TV Appeal, Ticket Sales, and actual deservedness (it may matter just a little that Iowa actually beat PSU and would in any other sport that was not so screwed up they would be the automatic pick if head to head)
Consider the following TV ratings for the last 3 Rose Bowls all against a common opponent USC
2009 – PSU 11.7 share
2008 – Illinois 11.1 share
2007 – Michigan 13.9 share
So PSU barely out delivered the Fighting Zooks on TV and they aren’t exactly Michigan are they?
And here’s this very unscientifc comparison of similar bowl appearances:
PSU Head to Head Against Iowa
2003 Capitol One – PSU 5.9 share
2005 Capitol One – Iowa 5.5 share
2008 Alamo – PSU 2.8 share
2007 Alamo – Iowa 6 share
2006 Orange – PSU 12.3 share
2003 Orange – Iowa 9.7 share
Cumulative numbers of these 3 like games
PSU – 7
Iowa – 7
So TV is not a slam dunk for PSU.
And if the other final measure is Butts in the seats than Iowa also holds its own. Iowa would outsell PSU at the Fiesta. I’d buy my ticket now, if I didn’t already have one.
Jesse Palmer uses his hands more when he's talking than Marlee Matlin
by Tony L on Nov 25, 2009 4:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ratings are also a function of storylines
PSU does not have one. They don’t have a Heisman candidate and they were never a part of the national championship discussion. Yes, yes, yes the PSU alums will tell you Joe Pa is ALWAYS a storyline. I think unless he declares that this is it, that too is overrated.
But, these bowl execs are human and anything can happen.
I want to acknowledge HS’s argument that Iowa needs a bowl victory to keep momentum and to set up a potential blockbuster year next year. I think if Iowa gets Boise they will be challenged and should they lose Boise is still a black eye. If they get TCU, that could be a difficult match-up too. So, watch what you wish for is a smart thought here.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 25, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ratings are also a function of opponents
PSU’s Capital One opponent = Auburn (#14)
Iowa’s Capital One opponent = LSU (#12)
seems about a wash to me, but I don’t know their fanbases that intimate.
PSU’s Alamo opponent = Texas A&M (unranked)
Iowa’s Alamo opponent = Texas (#18)
Bigger opponent by far for Iowa, and higher ranked. Big ratings boost to the Iowa vs Texas game.
PSU’s Orange opponent = Florida State (#22, but this matches up the “old geezers” so there is that storyline thing. Plus this was PSU’s first year after the “dark years”)
Iowa’s Orange opponent = USC (#5)
Based on opponents, I’d say Iowa’s game would have the advantage, but based on storyline PSU’s game had the advantage.
Guess what I’m getting at is it isn’t as clear cut as you put it based purely on rankings, as there is the other team’s effect to consider, and I’d say that when that is taken into consideration, Penn State has generally done more with less.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and just so you know
I’m in the camp that believes Iowa should get the bid over PSU, but that wouldn’t be surprised if PSU got it.
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There is one problem with your ranking theory
That Orange Bowl was the beginning of USC resurgence. Not middle, talk about dark years…go look at USC prior to 2002—you have to go back 14 years for double digit win season. Also, west coast has always been less watched teams due to time change. USC is only NOW a ratings juggernaut after Heismans and multiple 10+ win seasons.
I think you make the argument more solid that Penn State is unable to “alone” create ratings magic. Only two or three teams really can and Penn State is just not one of those teams. Notre Dame, however, is and as an example, if a bowl this year could choose ND over both Iowa and PSU they would.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 26, 2009 7:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The bowls are now entirely $$ oriented, with one exception:
The Rose Bowl, which considers itself “above” that sort of thing.
We only have to look to 2002 for what will happen. Iowa was taken by the Orange at THE FIRST POSSIBLE MOMENT.
Hardly anyone was predicting the Orange, for various reasons, but when push came to shove it seemed a no-brainer for the Orange Bowlers: Iowa, period, end of sentence.
In fact, it was such a big deal, they basically changed the rules about it!
Not only do I think Iowa will be picked by a BCS, but I think it’s possible they get picked by the Sugar, who may hope to pick up a “local” team as their second pick. In bowling, Iowa is a ringer, a sure thing.
More likely is the Fiesta, or possibly the Orange, but I doubt it: the FIRST BCS bowl that can reasonably pick Iowa will do so, just like 2002.
Why not Okie St? That bowl tie-in is not too tight, they don’t travel nearly as well, their big “story” is their star WR being suspended, and their record will at best be no better than ours. I just don’t see it, man!
When it comes to bowls, Iowa is a SURE THING. Not only did we jump NW last year, but rumor had it that the Cap One came close to picking us, except they didn’t want the terrible PR the “double jump” over MSU would’ve created.
There are few sure things in this world, but Iowa traveling well to a bowl, even in a crappy economy, is one of them. The Fiesta, Sugar, and Orange bowls will NOT pass that up, not a chance in holy hell will they pass that up.
If it's not too much trouble, search your soul--and then ask yourself if maybe I might have a point.
by The Director on Nov 25, 2009 6:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with a lot of that
although I don’t see the Sugar passing up either Florida or Alabama for Iowa. If it’s Florida, they’d get to host Tim Tebow’s final college football game, which is sure to be one of the biggest storylines of the bowl season. If it’s Alabama… well, that fanbase is ridiculously rabid. They had 90,000 show up to a spring game a few years ago. They’ll turn up in good numbers for a Sugar Bowl.
by RossWB on Nov 25, 2009 7:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused about why you think the Orange taking Iowa after the 2002 season was such a surprise
wasn’t Iowa the #3 team in the country that year? Since OSU and Miami were going to the MNC game, why wouldn’t they pick the #3 team (except that one would have expected them to go to the Rose Bowl since they’re from the Big 10.
I’m honestly curious, though. The way it appears to me makes it seem like a “lowly ranked, undeserving Iowa team leapfrogged into the Orange due to their massive fanbase”. I know Iowa has a big fan base that probably rivals Penn State’s (or at least comes close), but being the #3 team they deserved a BCS bowl…
by The JuggerNitt on Nov 25, 2009 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
here's the point
The Orange had thier pick before the Rose Bowl and they picked Iowa knowing they could have allowed the Rose Bowl to maintain their tie-in and still have Oklahoma (so no one would have objected and Iowa WANTED the Rose Bowl.
In other words, the Orange Bowl had every excuse NOT to take the #3 team in the BCS, take brand name Oklahoma (which the Rose Bowl picked happily with the next pick) and they choose Iowa. Oklahoma has been a reliable Orange Bowl player for years and yet, the Orange selected Iowa becasue they were a money making machine.
The Bowls are not stupid. They are in this for $$ not reputation or for the good of the game.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 26, 2009 7:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No way is the Sugar passing on the Bama-Florida loser
Might be tempting if they had first pick after the replacements, but they have the last pick. They’re not going to get a local team if they don’t take it first.
by SpartanDan on Nov 25, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree totally
if it was Georgia or Tennessee it would be interesting though.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 26, 2009 7:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Penn State to the Orange Bowl
Penn State should go to the Orange Bowl over Iowa. Penn State has the numbers and way more to offer than Iowa does.
Living alumni: Penn State — 504,000. Iowa — 238,879.
State population: Pennsylvania — 12,448,279. Iowa – 3,002,813.
2009 overall attendance and home game average: Penn State — 1,133,630 overall / 107,008 home ave. Iowa — 913,813 overall / 70,214 home ave.
Miles from home field to Dolphin Stadium: Penn State — 1,238. Iowa — 1,464.
Orange Bowl appearances – Penn State 5 (4-1 record). Iowa – 1.
by paige26 on Nov 30, 2009 12:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Glad you joined
to offer that nugget of insight. But the Orange would probably take PSU over Iowa. Won’t matter, however, as the Fiesta will (presumably) be picking before the Orange and is going to take Iowa.
I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.
by HoyaGoon on Nov 30, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed you failed to mention a single
on the field reason. Which was smart. Penn State played four teams who completed the season with a better than .500 record. They lost badly to two and beat two (Temple and Northwestern).
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Nov 30, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs






















