The Last Word On Northwestern and Bowls

by Oops Pow Surprise on Dec 3, 2008 7:23 PM CST in Football Comment 43 comments

Look, I know it's a lot of fun to see those two Paultarded Northwestern fans get sonned in that epic Dear Northwestern Fan thread (and if you haven't been reading, jesus it's good), but it's time to wrap it up like this.

Unless some calamity strikes Southern Cal or the Big XII, Ohio State's going to the BCS, Michigan State's in the Capital One, and Iowa's in the Outback. Bitch and moan all you want, but that's how it's going to go down. It's obvious and everyone knows it. Are the Wildcats getting screwed from a football perspective? Yeah, kinda, but arguing strict football merits on bowl selection is the province of the foolish. Iowa has a much better reputation with bowl reps and they're eligible for the Outback too, so the Outback reps are going to opt for the guaranteed sellout every time. Yes, 22-17, wonderful upset you guys pulled, and you really should have tried knocking out opposing tailbacks with helmet-to-helmet hits more often. Like against Indiana (snicker).

If the ticket-selling reputation pisses you off, Northwestern fan, here's what to do. You're going to the Alamo Bowl. Well, Iowa brought 15,000 people to the Alamo Bowl in 2001.

Beat that.

I'm serious. Earn a reputation for putting asses in seats and heads in beds. Don't just toss out alumni numbers and think that cuts it. Based on the last five bowls each has gone to (Iowa sent 20,000 to the Outback twice, both sellouts), Iowa sends about 30% more people to bowls than Northwestern, and that's what's sending us to a bowl over you yet again.

Facts is facts.

Alternatively, to take the path of least resistance since fan participation is just so hard, just give up and join the MAC, where there are far more kindred spirits who aren't so interested in sending lots of people to bowl games. And take Minnesota with you.

But face it, until your school starts selling tickets like the big boys, both at home and for bowls, you'll always be just Northwestern.

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Just Northwestern.....

Never has a more appropriate phrase been uttered. Its how the entire country, not just the Big Televen, view that program. Its the same reason that you get upset when the schedules come out and you realize that its your turn to not play Northwestern (and Indiana). Its the same reason that when you W and L the schedule in the offseason, you take about a nanosecond to ‘W’ the Northwestern. Their “just Northwestern”. Brilliant.

"I'm not doing any good back here."

by Hawkaloogie on Dec 3, 2008 8:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

My sentiments exactly.

Thanks OPS. No hard feelings to the Kitty ‘Cats. I hope they win their bowl game in glorious fashion (and only a little less gloriously than how Iowa wins their’s.)

Take over San Antonio in your purple Armani suits en masse, and THEN we can have conversations about the merit of schedules and records and rankings.

Let’s see if you can put your money where your mouths are. Never has that phrase been more apt.

by YouCanPutYourEddsInIt on Dec 3, 2008 9:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Just the stats, m'am...

Iowa averaged 70,169 per home game in a stadium that holds 70,585 (99.4%).

Northwestern averaged 28,590 per home game in a stadium that holds 47,130 (60.7%) (although that figure is inflated by the sellout from hosting Ohio State).

By the way, these stats are directly from each school’s cumulative stats found on their web sites. I’m too lazy to link it.

Iowa’s 2006 Alamo Bowl appearance also sold out in record time and at the time of its broadcast, was the highest rated bowl game ever televised on ESPN.

Send lots of fans to games, hell, develop ANY kind of fan base. Then you can bitch when you get “passed over” for a bowl.

Yee-Haw! I ride again!

by Cornshoe Hammaker on Dec 3, 2008 10:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It’s not just inflated by Ohio State. I went to the MSU game there this year; half the stadium was wearing green.

by SpartanDan on Dec 4, 2008 8:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'll gladly give NW some props if....

They can go into that Alamo Bowl and get a solid win against what will most likely ammount to a VERY good Big 12 opponent.

by Argulor on Dec 4, 2008 12:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe if Iowa hadn’t lost to Pittsburgh (uggh, how do you do that?) and Illinois (snicker…) it wouldn’t even be a question. Then at 10-2 you would be in a contest with Michigan State for bowl placement. Instead you may be the worst 8-4 team in the country. Regardless of the futility of football results in bowl selection, I don’t know how you can say they are only “kinda” getting screwed. They have the same Big Ten record, better overall record and beat you head to head.

Anyway, you know it is not just a question of pure attendance. If so, you would not have gone to the Outback Bowl twice, because you would never have passed over Michigan in 2005. That year we averaged 110,915 fans in a 107,501 seat stadium for 103% attendance while you allegedly ( http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081113/sports020502/811130383 ) had 100% attendance in your 70,585 seat stadium. Both Michigan and Iowa travel well, and Michigan beat Iowa head to head. I’m sure if this blog existed it would have been writing open letters apologizing for jumping Michigan in the bowl pecking order.

I’m also glad it only takes you a nanosecond to pencil in a W over Northwestern in the offseason. It would be pretty embarassing to take longer than that to be wrong 3 out of the last 4 years (and 7 out 12 games over the last 15 years).

by jallotta on Dec 4, 2008 12:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Someone sounds cough Toledo cough bitter.

"Sweet lady fate, why dost thou piss on me so?"

by bluearmadillo on Dec 4, 2008 6:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

3-9

by txhawkeye on Dec 4, 2008 7:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe you have far deeper issues to worry about within your own house to be coming into ours and telling us how to behave

And really? You’re going snicker at OUR losses? Let’s take a look at your marvelous season, um-kay?

Notre Dame. Snicker!
Illinois. Snicker! (and we have something in common too, but you lost to Illinois on your own turf, so that means something along the lines of your team sucks giant balls)
Toledo. LOL!
Penn State. Snicker!
Purdon. Snicker!
Just Northwestern. Snicker!
Ohio State. Snicker!

Remember this. You are Michigan. In any other year, you win all those games (well, all but OSU). Again, think about the state of your own program before tossing grenades into ours. Glass houses, my friend. Glass houses…

by Twin Cities Hawk on Dec 4, 2008 8:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Make fun of Michigan all you want. They sucked this year. No argument from me. But Northwestern beat you, and has beaten you consistently.

Yeah, Michigan is probably the worst 3-9 team this year. It’s too depressing to look at who the other 3-9 teams are so I’m not going to research into that. It certainly would have been better for Iowa to play Michigan than Northwestern.

But OPS is the one who snickered at Northwestern losing to Indiana (without their first AND second string running back AND losing their quarterback halfway through).

I just find it odd that Iowa fans feel so superior to Northwestern when you’ve done poorly against them the last 15 years. Get a 10 game winning streak and then all of this looking down at Northwestern would be more justified (hell, even a winning record in recent times).

by jallotta on Dec 4, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not just OPS

I also laughed when jNU lost to Indianolana

by Duez I say on Dec 4, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wait

We have to have a 10 game winning streak against a team before we can make fun of them? Well, that sounds fair, ‘cause I know Michigan can at least make that claim. Oh wait, no you can’t.

I ate the blue ones ... they taste like burning.

by HoyaGoon on Dec 4, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Really? Carte blanche?

3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9 3-9

And oh for gods sake. Iowa lost to Illinois and we can’t make fun of other teams? Have you even been on this site? From what I can tell OPS and HS primary reason for doing this is so they can amuse people by making fun of others. Who the fuck are you to make up the rules?

by txhawkeye on Dec 4, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Of course making fun of other teams is absolutely vital to College Football. The only reason I ever read this site is that it’s almost always incredibly fucking hilarious. This post, was serious though. Maybe if it had been part of JoePa’s chronicles it would be different. (By the way, of course you have carte blanche to make fun of Michigan. We’ve been reduced to trying to justify that our 3-9 season was better than Notre Dame’s 3-9 season. That’s just pathetically hilarious for every other team in the country.)

I never said people can’t make fun of Northwestern, or any other teams. The only thing I said about making fun of teams is to encourage it. However, that also means that people should make fun of Iowa for thinking they’re so much better than Northwestern.

Anyway back to the topic of bowl selections. How would Iowa fans like it if the Outback bowl picked Wisconsin over Iowa? Would you just accept it and say, “Well Wisconsin has travelled really well to the Outback Bowl the last 2 years.” No, you’d be trying to think of ways for your AD to make sure Iowa goes to the Outback bowl. After all, you have a better record than Wisconsin, and beat them head-to-head. Hmmm, sounds familiar (yes, I understand that Wisconsin doesn’t travel better than Iowa, so this scenario probably wouldn’t happen).

Also OPS if you are actually reading this, where did you get those bowl attendance statistics? I would be very curious to see other bowl figures. The only website I could find was something called goldyfan.com, which wouldn’t load because it required a login.

by jallotta on Dec 5, 2008 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

From the Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-30-northwestern-football-newnov30,0,4309684.story

It was linked in the comments of the first Dear Northwestern Fan article. The sources for the numbers are the SIDs.

As for if Wisconsin were picked over Iowa, uh, what? They’re not getting picked over Iowa. You’re asking me to assume a fact that doesn’t reflect reality. I’m pretty sure they’re not even eligible for the Outback on account of JNW’s record. That’s like asking if Illinois took the Outback. It’s nonsense.

I got more rhymes than Wade Lookingbill's got dunks

by Oops Pow Surprise on Dec 5, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"I don't believe in hypotheticals. It's like lying to your brain."

Thanks for the link. I guess nobody wants to publicize bowl tickets sold except when they can release it to try to make a case for getting picked to a certain one.

Yes, Wisconsin can’t go to the Outback because of Northwestern. And even if they could, I doubt a bowl would pick Wisconsin over Iowa, because I doubt there is much difference in how the teams travel. But you’d be pissed if Iowa got passed over on a bowl game for a team you beat.

by jallotta on Dec 5, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And my brains hurt.

This has been beat to death. Yes we’d be pissed. No, JNU isn’t likely to get picked over Iowa for this 1 game this 1 year, when the Outback doesn’t have to take the team with the better overall record and head to head doesn’t count for purposes of which team this bowl selects.

Being infantile is entertaining, and JNU fans have obliged and then some. OPS and HS don’t pick much at tOSU or PSU (even though head to head against PSU hasn’t been so bad recently) since their fans don’t have much of a chip on their shoulder about Iowa. They poke where they can get the most rise, typically with excellent results. Fry used to do the same thing to Bo, and if RichRod can keep it going like this year, maybe (hopefully) we’ll be able to include you.

by txhawkeye on Dec 5, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Only Way to Settle This...

Crumping

by storminspank on Dec 5, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. But I still want a crump-off.

Now back to more JoePa chronicles. And tales of JLeman and his legendary Freedom Squad.

by jallotta on Dec 5, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I do agree that Northwestern needs better attendance.

They need to do something to get more fans. I don’t know what they can do, but the only games that come close to selling out are when teams that travel well play there, like Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan, MSU and Wisconsin.

It does seem like they travel pretty well to the bowl games, but bowls will always find it risky to take them when they can hardly get their stadium 50% full. So, of course the Outback bowl is going to take Iowa.

by jallotta on Dec 4, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stats are like mini-skirts...

…they hide what you really need to see. Not that it matters for the sake of the who’s going to what bowl argument, but I do question Iowa’s attendance stats. Despite the fact that the game had already been declared a sellout, I was able to get 3 tickets together for the Northwestern/Iowa game near the 50 yard line less than 12 hours before game time….and there were many other open seats. As for Northwestern, 25-60% of the crowd for each home game this year were wearing the opposing teams’ colors. Yes—that includes the games against the Ohio Bobcats and Syracuse. This alone shouldn’t be taken as an insult to Northwestern fans (it’s kind of fun to root for the unpopular team). The embarrassing part of the Ryan Field atmosphere is the fact that the majority of their fans that do show up act like—-ummm how should I say this?—stereotypical too good for your own shit Northwestern Alumni—and show zero enthusiasm during the game. Hell, I was the only person in our section that would actually stand up and get excited for 3rd downs and big plays—-and I’m Just a buckeye fan that lives near Northwestern.

Again, none of this matters for the sake of the bowl debate. You don’t have to analyze the numbers to realize Iowa will bring more fans/money to your city/bowl.

jallotta—LOL! Talking smack. 3-9 does nothing to fade the M*ch*gan arrogance. You are kinda/sorta correct about the 2005 scenerio. Yes, pure attendance did not dictate who was picked first. But, it was a safe bet that Iowa would bring a bigger crowd to Tampa. I know it’s hard for the younger readers to imagine, but there was a time when Michigan fans would have been disappointed and not eager to travel to a lower-tier bowl game.

by Mr Marbles on Dec 4, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Eh...

I’m a Northwestern fan that’s slightly fatigued by the debate. We know the solid reasons why what’s going to happen here, but just want to put the up good fight. Frankly, I just want to avoid the Alamo Bowl because of the likely opponent (and file that in the careful for what we wish for category if you’d like) – I want no part of OkSt. or Mizzou.

If we hadn’t suffered our annual Preposterous Loss Against an Awful Team this whole debate wouldn’t have occurred, I’m guessing.

Good luck if you face off against an Ess Eee See Speed team instead of us.

by RotoJeff on Dec 4, 2008 1:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

You're right about one thing

Beat Indiana, and you’re 10-2 and there’s no way you’re getting jumped by Iowa. But you didn’t.

by SpartanDan on Dec 4, 2008 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

And that’s the aggravating thing – even in our best years, we have that one head-scratching loss, the “how the hell did we lose to those guys” loss. Alas, we do it in our mediocre years too – see 2007 Duke.

by RotoJeff on Dec 4, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're not the only ones...

Iowa State – 2002. I think screams from the Brad Banks fumbles are still being heard around the world.

by Argulor on Dec 4, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rational minds

of which there are a few on either side (I was on ESPN last night bashing the ACC and defending NU along with Iowa = I need more to do), might agree. Iowa fans and alums (I am both) are more confident than not that Iowa is going to the Outback and JNU to the Alamo. I would rather Iowa play Jan 1 (even at an ungodly hour) against an SEC team I know little about. Ol’ dickhead ball coach’s team seems in disarray, and those young men will have a hard time getting excited to face a Big XI team they will believe are fat, slow and pale. A few early slobberknockers ought to put the quit in them, and it appears that team has the tendency.

Then, too, this has been highly entertaining and unresolvable – with a high fuck you quotient. JNU has been tarring Iowa fans as ridiculous and assholes and can’t get off that 1 win, while we are secure that we actually may be ridiculous, but we’re more smart-asses, and – sorry – bowl sponsors love us for their own reasons. If you all had beaten those pansies from Bloomington, I’d have to agree this discussion would be moot (or mute, as GWB might say). Most of us posting are accepting our 4 losses, several of which were unexcusable, but the PSU heart attack game made them more palatable. I hope JNU beats the shit out of whoever they play in San Antonio, but I really, really hope Iowa does x2 in Florida.

by txhawkeye on Dec 4, 2008 8:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just had a rational thought

For argument’s sake, forget the number of fans right now for either team. The economy sucks right now and everyone is being cheap. Considering this and the perception that Northwestern fans make more money, the rational choice would be for Outback to take JNU.
But they won’t.
Because being a fan has nothing to do with being rational, especially with your money. Between this idea and Iowa’s larger fan base, those are 2 reasons (outside of football) to pick Iowa.

Now, can we please move past the debate and onto hotel reservations? JNU, this is for you. Hawks, this is for us.

by Duez I say on Dec 4, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One more thing on attendance

Unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll ever draw well, beyond our extreme bandwagon years. The biggest issue for us is the mere size of the student body (and thus, the number of alums around, too). We’re annually between 7,500-8,000 undergrads; the last time I heard, the next smallest school in the Big Ten was Purdue, at 20,000.

That affects not just with the student attendance, which isn’t that bad actually, but more so with the season ticket base. Alums are the biggest target audience for that, and there are just fewer locally for us than other Big Ten schools. And if you want to pack a place, you need a good season ticket base. Unfortunately, this is where the fair-weather aspect kicks in. I graduated in ‘93 and was able to get season tickets right away, of course, since that was before our Rose Bowl year. I was able to move over to one section better within the first year, and then again in ’98. Alas, I moved to California in ’99 (yeah, part of the argument that our alums are more spread out – it’s somewhat true, especially b/c the student body is less local than most), so I had to give them to a friend.

You’d think that being in Chicago should take care of that, but we don’t draw very well (obviously) from non-Northwestern affiliated people in the city. I think a large part of that is that there are so many others that are Big Ten alums from other schools there, plus so many damn Notre Dame fans – of the Subway Alumni category. We’ve just never been able to develop the same.

I’m rambling now (so I suppose it would be more than “one more thing”), but also the gameday experience at Ryan Field is admittedly pretty miserable. Even for the meager crowds that we draw, we run out of food at halftime regularly, the bathroom facilities are awful, etc… When I went there, fraternities and other student groups could have tailgates right next to the stadium, in the east parking lot. Now that’s gone, mostly out of liability fears. Anything that diminishes the student enthusiasm for attending the games can only hurt the atmosphere there. All of these things that take away from the game day experience make it harder to retain the casual fan.

So … the overall point? We’re always going to lose the numbers game. So we have to resort to tilting at other windmills.

by RotoJeff on Dec 4, 2008 12:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

You’re right on about the gameday experience being miserable—and changing that could go a long way towards drawing more Chicagoans to Ryan Field. Even calling it “Gameday” is a stretch. When you go to other Big Ten campuses, fans spend their entire day marinating themselves in football and tailgating madness. Ryan Field is more like stopping at an afternoon picnic for a few hours.

So how do you change that? I don’t know if it’s possible. The students already show up and do their part—so its not a matter of building school spirit with the current students. The free beer at wildcat alley is great, but its just too damn family friendly for your typical college football fan. Ryan Field is isolated in residential Evanston, which makes it difficult to spice up the surrounding atmosphere. The other Big 10 schools are surrounded by vast fields for tailgating or have bars and other activities in the near vicinity that permits the fans to socialize and get quite liquored up before going to the game. I hate to imply that luring a bunch of drunks to the field is a solution….but it seems to work everywhere else. Can you go to a game sober and be fun and rowdy? I don’t want to find out.

by Mr Marbles on Dec 4, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cliff Notes Version please

I went to Iowa, not jNU

by Duez I say on Dec 4, 2008 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cliff Note Version

jNU = no fun

by Mr Marbles on Dec 4, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dead-on

The residential area of the stadium hurts with things like parking – half the streets in the surrounding areas have parking restrictions, to keep fans from parking there. If you’re going to be “family-friendly,” that necessarily entails not making said family search 30 minutes for a parking spot two miles away.

As much as I love my alma mater, I’m fairly jealous of the gameday experiences everyone else got to enjoy.

by RotoJeff on Dec 4, 2008 1:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs